Comments on: When to sue for an undisclosed defect http://raincityguide.com/2008/08/01/when-to-sue-for-an-undisclosed-defect/ Seattle's Leading Resource for Real Estate Information Sun, 08 Nov 2009 01:47:42 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: ARDELL http://raincityguide.com/2008/08/01/when-to-sue-for-an-undisclosed-defect/#comment-327024 ARDELL Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:00:08 +0000 http://raincityguide.com/?p=2045#comment-327024 Kary, I had a couple of sales in recent history where sewage pipe issues came into play. One was a septic system and the other was public sewer in Seattle. In neither of those cases did the seller know about the problem before it was identified. The septic one was identified (and fixed by the seller) prior to the house going on market by the pump inspection the seller did a few months in advance of listing the property. The second one was found by a camrea inspection of the clay sewer pipe done by the buyer as a "2nd inspection" called for by the home inspector, and remedied by the seller as a result of a thorough inspection. I think Kristen is right to feel the way that she does, but the seller is usually the last one to know about such things. Excluding the inspectors from her action is not likely the way to go. Kary,

I had a couple of sales in recent history where sewage pipe issues came into play. One was a septic system and the other was public sewer in Seattle.

In neither of those cases did the seller know about the problem before it was identified. The septic one was identified (and fixed by the seller) prior to the house going on market by the pump inspection the seller did a few months in advance of listing the property. The second one was found by a camrea inspection of the clay sewer pipe done by the buyer as a “2nd inspection” called for by the home inspector, and remedied by the seller as a result of a thorough inspection.

I think Kristen is right to feel the way that she does, but the seller is usually the last one to know about such things. Excluding the inspectors from her action is not likely the way to go.

]]> By: Kary L. Krismer http://raincityguide.com/2008/08/01/when-to-sue-for-an-undisclosed-defect/#comment-327022 Kary L. Krismer Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:26:39 +0000 http://raincityguide.com/?p=2045#comment-327022 I've never watched a septic inspection--I try to stay away from such things due to the smell. ;) But if the pipe issue was between the house and the septic I'm not sure that's something that would be caught by an inspection. Do they turn on water in the house to see if it runs into the tank right away? If not, they wouldn't catch that sort of issue. And if the house had not been lived in for some time, it's very possible the prior owner wouldn't have known about the issue. I’ve never watched a septic inspection–I try to stay away from such things due to the smell. ;)

But if the pipe issue was between the house and the septic I’m not sure that’s something that would be caught by an inspection. Do they turn on water in the house to see if it runs into the tank right away? If not, they wouldn’t catch that sort of issue. And if the house had not been lived in for some time, it’s very possible the prior owner wouldn’t have known about the issue.

]]> By: ARDELL http://raincityguide.com/2008/08/01/when-to-sue-for-an-undisclosed-defect/#comment-327017 ARDELL Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:25:57 +0000 http://raincityguide.com/?p=2045#comment-327017 Kristen, I doubt the seller knew about that pipe. What homeowner would? You have the original receipt from the 7/23 pumping and inspection. Clearly you have all the information in hand that was available to the seller, and you couldn't tell that a pipe was broken, so how would they? If you called the same company back that came out the first time, when you had the problem, they likely would explain to you how they "missed" the broken pipe the first time around. More likely the stress on the pipe of the pumping caused the dislocation of the pipe. Seems to me it would more likely be a suit against the original inspection company than the owner. Ask them how they missed it, and see what their answer is. I seriously doubt the previous owner had the problem of raw sewage backing up into their bathtub, and ignored it. Kristen,

I doubt the seller knew about that pipe. What homeowner would? You have the original receipt from the 7/23 pumping and inspection. Clearly you have all the information in hand that was available to the seller, and you couldn’t tell that a pipe was broken, so how would they?

If you called the same company back that came out the first time, when you had the problem, they likely would explain to you how they “missed” the broken pipe the first time around. More likely the stress on the pipe of the pumping caused the dislocation of the pipe.

Seems to me it would more likely be a suit against the original inspection company than the owner. Ask them how they missed it, and see what their answer is. I seriously doubt the previous owner had the problem of raw sewage backing up into their bathtub, and ignored it.

]]> By: craig http://raincityguide.com/2008/08/01/when-to-sue-for-an-undisclosed-defect/#comment-327008 craig Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:15:37 +0000 http://raincityguide.com/?p=2045#comment-327008 Kristen: This is not legal advice. For legal advice, consult an attorney directly, not via a blog. That said... 1. I have no idea. Perhaps an inquiry to the service provider is in order. 2. Possibly. That amount does fall below the maximium allowed in small claims court (where no attorneys are allowed so no legal expenses incurred) so it may be worthwhile. Best of luck. Kristen:
This is not legal advice. For legal advice, consult an attorney directly, not via a blog. That said…
1. I have no idea. Perhaps an inquiry to the service provider is in order.
2. Possibly. That amount does fall below the maximium allowed in small claims court (where no attorneys are allowed so no legal expenses incurred) so it may be worthwhile.
Best of luck.

]]> By: kristen http://raincityguide.com/2008/08/01/when-to-sue-for-an-undisclosed-defect/#comment-326998 kristen Tue, 21 Oct 2008 04:50:14 +0000 http://raincityguide.com/?p=2045#comment-326998 Ok, so here's my question . . . Puchased a home recently. Previous owner had septic pumped/checked on 7/23. Purchase complete on 8/1. On 8/3, septic backs up into the master bath. When septic company comes out, they found pipe in ground was broken and separated. Total cost for repairs: $2,500. Welcome to home ownership! Questions: 1. why/how did the septic system pass the inspection on 7/23? 2. Is there any recourse to collect the $2500 from the previous owner? Thanks. Ok, so here’s my question . . .

Puchased a home recently.
Previous owner had septic pumped/checked on 7/23.
Purchase complete on 8/1.
On 8/3, septic backs up into the master bath.
When septic company comes out, they found pipe in ground was broken and separated. Total cost for repairs: $2,500. Welcome to home ownership!
Questions:
1. why/how did the septic system pass the inspection on 7/23?
2. Is there any recourse to collect the $2500 from the previous owner?
Thanks.

]]> By: DIGITY http://raincityguide.com/2008/08/01/when-to-sue-for-an-undisclosed-defect/#comment-323565 DIGITY Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:07:09 +0000 http://raincityguide.com/?p=2045#comment-323565 WOW! I AM IMPRESSED WITH THIS SITE. I AM A BUYER WHO IS INVOLVED IN A SEEMINGLY RARE CASE OF A PRIOR OWNER (WE JUST CLOSED IN APRIL) CAULKING AND STAINING THE ROTTED LOGS OF A 14 YR OLD CABIN. THEY ADMITTED TO US IT WAS DONE BY THE OWNER AND HER BOYFRIEND. THEY DID A GOOD JOB. MY INSPECTOR NEVER CAUGHT IT EITHER. OFCOURSE, HE FAILED TO PROBE THE LOGS AT ALL. WE ARE SUING HIM AS WELL. MY LAWYER ,WHO HAS FAITH IN OUR SUIT, HAS CAPPED HIS FEES AT $18,000. OR 1/3 OF THE JUDGEMENT. WE ARE SUING THE OWNER FOR VERBAL FRAUD, WRITTEN FRAUD AND 4 OTHER CAUSES I CAN'T THINK OF AT THE MOMENT. THE REPAIRS ARE GOING TO BE ABOUT $60,000.00 TO REPLACE 700 FEET OF ROTTED LOGS AND TO COBB BLAST, TREAT AND RE-CAULK THE REST TO MATCH. WE OWN OTHER PROPERTIES, BUT THEY ARE ALL "STICK" BUILT HOUSES. I HAVE A GOOD FEELING ABOUT THIS SUIT. I HAVE A LOT OF PIC'S OF THE PROPERTY I TOOK ON ONE OF OUR WALK THRU'S BEFORE CLOSING. THESE ARE GOOD PROOF OF HER HIDING THE WATER STAINS ON THE INTERIOR AND OTHER THINGS I WON'T GO INTO. WE ALSO HAVE A WITNESS TO HER GUILT AS WELL. EVEN IF I LOOSE, I STILL WIN AS FAR AS IM CONCERNED . THE STATE OF NY IS VERY STRICT ABOUT "THE BUYER BEWARE" CLAUSE. IT IS UP TO ME TO PROVE SHE WAS AWARE OF THE DEFECTS AND CONCEALED THEM. IF SHE DID NOT KNOW ABOUT IT, I WOULD BE STUCK. THE FACT THAT I DID EXERSISE MY RIGHT TO AN INSPECTION WILL ALSO HELP ME. IT IS PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE AN INSPECTION AND THEN TRY TO HOLD THE PRIOR OWNER ACCOUNTABLE THAT KILL ME. MY ADVISE TO PROSPECTIVE BUYERS WOULD BE THAT JUST WHEN YOU THINK YOU KNOW IT ALL, YOU FIND YOU DON'T. STICK TO WHAT YOU KNOW, AND ALWAYS HAVE A HOME INSPECTION DONE. IF YOU CAN FIND A HOME INSPECTION THAT IS A LICENSED ENGINEER, YOUR MUCH BETTER OFF THAN ONE WITH ONLY A CERTIFICATE. THE COST IS ABOUT THE SAME. LOG CABINS ARE SPECIAL. THEY NEED TO BE INSPECTED BY A LOG HOME INSPECTOR AT THE VERY LEAST. I ASKED MY INSPECTOR AND HE TOLD ME HE HAD PERFORMED INSPECTIONS ON LOG HOMES IN THE PAST. WHAT DID I KNOW? I TOOK HIS WORD FOR IT. BIG, HUGE MISTAKE! HE NEVER EVEN TOUCHED THE LOGS. ANYWAY, GOOD LUCK TO ALL! WOW! I AM IMPRESSED WITH THIS SITE. I AM A BUYER WHO IS INVOLVED IN A SEEMINGLY RARE CASE OF A PRIOR OWNER (WE JUST CLOSED IN APRIL) CAULKING AND STAINING THE ROTTED LOGS OF A 14 YR OLD CABIN. THEY ADMITTED TO US IT WAS DONE BY THE OWNER AND HER BOYFRIEND. THEY DID A GOOD JOB. MY INSPECTOR NEVER CAUGHT IT EITHER. OFCOURSE, HE FAILED TO PROBE THE LOGS AT ALL. WE ARE SUING HIM AS WELL. MY LAWYER ,WHO HAS FAITH IN OUR SUIT, HAS CAPPED HIS FEES AT $18,000. OR 1/3 OF THE JUDGEMENT. WE ARE SUING THE OWNER FOR VERBAL FRAUD, WRITTEN FRAUD AND 4 OTHER CAUSES I CAN’T THINK OF AT THE MOMENT. THE REPAIRS ARE GOING TO BE ABOUT $60,000.00 TO REPLACE 700 FEET OF ROTTED LOGS AND TO COBB BLAST, TREAT AND RE-CAULK THE REST TO MATCH. WE OWN OTHER PROPERTIES, BUT THEY ARE ALL “STICK” BUILT HOUSES. I HAVE A GOOD FEELING ABOUT THIS SUIT. I HAVE A LOT OF PIC’S OF THE PROPERTY I TOOK ON ONE OF OUR WALK THRU’S BEFORE CLOSING. THESE ARE GOOD PROOF OF HER HIDING THE WATER STAINS ON THE INTERIOR AND OTHER THINGS I WON’T GO INTO. WE ALSO HAVE A WITNESS TO HER GUILT AS WELL. EVEN IF I LOOSE, I STILL WIN AS FAR AS IM CONCERNED . THE STATE OF NY IS VERY STRICT ABOUT “THE BUYER BEWARE” CLAUSE. IT IS UP TO ME TO PROVE SHE WAS AWARE OF THE DEFECTS AND CONCEALED THEM. IF SHE DID NOT KNOW ABOUT IT, I WOULD BE STUCK. THE FACT THAT I DID EXERSISE MY RIGHT TO AN INSPECTION WILL ALSO HELP ME. IT IS PEOPLE WHO DON’T HAVE AN INSPECTION AND THEN TRY TO HOLD THE PRIOR OWNER ACCOUNTABLE THAT KILL ME. MY ADVISE TO PROSPECTIVE BUYERS WOULD BE THAT JUST WHEN YOU THINK YOU KNOW IT ALL, YOU FIND YOU DON’T. STICK TO WHAT YOU KNOW, AND ALWAYS HAVE A HOME INSPECTION DONE. IF YOU CAN FIND A HOME INSPECTION THAT IS A LICENSED ENGINEER, YOUR MUCH BETTER OFF THAN ONE WITH ONLY A CERTIFICATE. THE COST IS ABOUT THE SAME. LOG CABINS ARE SPECIAL. THEY NEED TO BE INSPECTED BY A LOG HOME INSPECTOR AT THE VERY LEAST. I ASKED MY INSPECTOR AND HE TOLD ME HE HAD PERFORMED INSPECTIONS ON LOG HOMES IN THE PAST. WHAT DID I KNOW? I TOOK HIS WORD FOR IT. BIG, HUGE MISTAKE! HE NEVER EVEN TOUCHED THE LOGS. ANYWAY, GOOD LUCK TO ALL!

]]> By: craig http://raincityguide.com/2008/08/01/when-to-sue-for-an-undisclosed-defect/#comment-323180 craig Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:29:02 +0000 http://raincityguide.com/?p=2045#comment-323180 Really Riley? Is it that simple? Should someone "eat their losses" where the seller actively concealed a defect in the property? Why should the seller get away with fraud? I agree that every buyer must investigate the property (an obligation recognized by the law), and I recognize that every transaction has risks. However, the risk of being defauded is not one that must be tolerated. The seller should not profit at the expense of the buyer. In other words, the seller should profit as determined by the market price for the property as it exists, not as determined by the seller's ability to actively deceive and "get over" on the buyer. Really Riley? Is it that simple? Should someone “eat their losses” where the seller actively concealed a defect in the property? Why should the seller get away with fraud?

I agree that every buyer must investigate the property (an obligation recognized by the law), and I recognize that every transaction has risks. However, the risk of being defauded is not one that must be tolerated. The seller should not profit at the expense of the buyer. In other words, the seller should profit as determined by the market price for the property as it exists, not as determined by the seller’s ability to actively deceive and “get over” on the buyer.

]]> By: Riley Smith | Coconut Grove Realtor http://raincityguide.com/2008/08/01/when-to-sue-for-an-undisclosed-defect/#comment-323178 Riley Smith | Coconut Grove Realtor Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:07:04 +0000 http://raincityguide.com/?p=2045#comment-323178 I believe that in home buying, as in any decision in life, there are risks. When you buy a home you must do your due diligence and then you have to take a leap of faith. If it turns out that you made a bad investment, then you just have to eat your losses and move on. I believe that in home buying, as in any decision in life, there are risks. When you buy a home you must do your due diligence and then you have to take a leap of faith. If it turns out that you made a bad investment, then you just have to eat your losses and move on.

]]> By: Leanne http://raincityguide.com/2008/08/01/when-to-sue-for-an-undisclosed-defect/#comment-322856 Leanne Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:00:08 +0000 http://raincityguide.com/?p=2045#comment-322856 Hi Craig, good post! Definitely the voice of reason. Thor, good points too. 6 buyers can look at a crack in a foundation and have 6 different levels of concern! Getting professionals to inspect it is the best step, waaaay before the panic step :-). Hi Craig, good post! Definitely the voice of reason.

Thor, good points too. 6 buyers can look at a crack in a foundation and have 6 different levels of concern! Getting professionals to inspect it is the best step, waaaay before the panic step :-) .

]]> By: Kary L. Krismer http://raincityguide.com/2008/08/01/when-to-sue-for-an-undisclosed-defect/#comment-322819 Kary L. Krismer Fri, 01 Aug 2008 19:43:39 +0000 http://raincityguide.com/?p=2045#comment-322819 I've mentioned this before, but I was in bankruptcy court once when people were fighting over pianos in inventory of the debtor. There were so many attorneys there the judge joked that the best solution would be to give every attorney a piano if they'd waive their fees. I’ve mentioned this before, but I was in bankruptcy court once when people were fighting over pianos in inventory of the debtor. There were so many attorneys there the judge joked that the best solution would be to give every attorney a piano if they’d waive their fees.

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