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	<title>Comments on: Lawyers Provide Better Representation &#8211; Pt. 2 of 4</title>
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	<link>http://raincityguide.com/2009/08/11/lawyers-provide-better-representation-pt-2-of-4/</link>
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		<title>By: JimN</title>
		<link>http://raincityguide.com/2009/08/11/lawyers-provide-better-representation-pt-2-of-4/#comment-342487</link>
		<dc:creator>JimN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 22:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://raincityguide.com/?p=7372#comment-342487</guid>
		<description>Craig,

There obviously is no easy solution.  You&#039;re position seems to add complexity and cost.  We&#039;ll have to just agree to disagree on this one.

As with most things, there needs to be a balence.  You could make a strong argument that most people would require a lawyer to explain their credit card agreement, when the majority don&#039;t even read it at all.  Maybe we&#039;ll just mandate required lawyer representation for all types of purchases/agreements.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig,</p>
<p>There obviously is no easy solution.  You&#8217;re position seems to add complexity and cost.  We&#8217;ll have to just agree to disagree on this one.</p>
<p>As with most things, there needs to be a balence.  You could make a strong argument that most people would require a lawyer to explain their credit card agreement, when the majority don&#8217;t even read it at all.  Maybe we&#8217;ll just mandate required lawyer representation for all types of purchases/agreements.  <img src='http://raincityguide.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://raincityguide.com/2009/08/11/lawyers-provide-better-representation-pt-2-of-4/#comment-342486</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 21:47:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://raincityguide.com/?p=7372#comment-342486</guid>
		<description>Jim -- good luck crafting such a benevolent and &quot;fair-to-all&quot; governmental intrusion.  The right to contract, on terms that you accept, is an important one.  It should not be sacrificed in the name of &quot;transparancy.&quot;  And the &quot;middlemen&quot; are actually essential to a healthy and functioning markeplace.  Or are you saying the government should act as escrow, lender, mortgage broker, title insurer, etc.?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim &#8212; good luck crafting such a benevolent and &#8220;fair-to-all&#8221; governmental intrusion.  The right to contract, on terms that you accept, is an important one.  It should not be sacrificed in the name of &#8220;transparancy.&#8221;  And the &#8220;middlemen&#8221; are actually essential to a healthy and functioning markeplace.  Or are you saying the government should act as escrow, lender, mortgage broker, title insurer, etc.?</p>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://raincityguide.com/2009/08/11/lawyers-provide-better-representation-pt-2-of-4/#comment-342485</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 21:44:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://raincityguide.com/?p=7372#comment-342485</guid>
		<description>Jeffrey -- I&#039;m not clear how this comment relates to the comment thread.  That said, I agree that form contracts facilitate transactions, particularly where most professionals involved (i.e. agents) are not lawyers and can only engage in the limited practice of law.  I have no problem with form contracts, and I have never suggested otherwise.

That said, I think we can all agree that form contracts will not cover everybody&#039;s unique situation.  Specific terms will often be necessary.  The MLS recognizes this with the Form 34, the blank addendum that is used to draft unique contract language.  Thus, even with form contracts, many transactions will require the drafting and acceptance of unique contract terms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeffrey &#8212; I&#8217;m not clear how this comment relates to the comment thread.  That said, I agree that form contracts facilitate transactions, particularly where most professionals involved (i.e. agents) are not lawyers and can only engage in the limited practice of law.  I have no problem with form contracts, and I have never suggested otherwise.</p>
<p>That said, I think we can all agree that form contracts will not cover everybody&#8217;s unique situation.  Specific terms will often be necessary.  The MLS recognizes this with the Form 34, the blank addendum that is used to draft unique contract language.  Thus, even with form contracts, many transactions will require the drafting and acceptance of unique contract terms.</p>
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		<title>By: JimN</title>
		<link>http://raincityguide.com/2009/08/11/lawyers-provide-better-representation-pt-2-of-4/#comment-342484</link>
		<dc:creator>JimN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 21:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://raincityguide.com/?p=7372#comment-342484</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t make that assumption.  Of course there has to be a due diligence for the transaction.  Fraud or non-disclosure will still be an issue and the time for lawyers to get involved.

I&#039;m simply saying make the process buying/selling process more transparent and regulated, limiting the need for all the middlemen with their various profit motives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t make that assumption.  Of course there has to be a due diligence for the transaction.  Fraud or non-disclosure will still be an issue and the time for lawyers to get involved.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m simply saying make the process buying/selling process more transparent and regulated, limiting the need for all the middlemen with their various profit motives.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Douglass</title>
		<link>http://raincityguide.com/2009/08/11/lawyers-provide-better-representation-pt-2-of-4/#comment-342483</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Douglass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 21:30:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://raincityguide.com/?p=7372#comment-342483</guid>
		<description>Craig, 

Reminds me of the old story about an Attorney that was struggling with his business in a small town in the mid-west.  Down to his last few dollars and ready to quit another Attorney opened shop across town and they both prospered.

Like Ardell says, leave the standard contracts behind and go with an Attorney crafted contract, would require the other side to hire an attorney to review the first attorneys work. In a world where one tiny word can make tip the balance of advantage from one party to the next, both need to be fully represented.  

Standard contracts have been time tested in &quot;real life&quot; and Court and reflect a mutual understanding of those professionals involved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig, </p>
<p>Reminds me of the old story about an Attorney that was struggling with his business in a small town in the mid-west.  Down to his last few dollars and ready to quit another Attorney opened shop across town and they both prospered.</p>
<p>Like Ardell says, leave the standard contracts behind and go with an Attorney crafted contract, would require the other side to hire an attorney to review the first attorneys work. In a world where one tiny word can make tip the balance of advantage from one party to the next, both need to be fully represented.  </p>
<p>Standard contracts have been time tested in &#8220;real life&#8221; and Court and reflect a mutual understanding of those professionals involved.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Douglass</title>
		<link>http://raincityguide.com/2009/08/11/lawyers-provide-better-representation-pt-2-of-4/#comment-342482</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Douglass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 21:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://raincityguide.com/?p=7372#comment-342482</guid>
		<description>JimN,

Your assumption is that all Seller&#039;s and listing agents will be completely honest in their disclosure to you.  Sometimes that happens, many times it does not.  In California 90% of real estate lawsuits have to do with non-disclosure.

Thus is the logic for a reasonable period of time for a buyer to perform his due diligence and determine that the property is acceptable - this works in the real world and gives everyone the opportunity to move through the process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JimN,</p>
<p>Your assumption is that all Seller&#8217;s and listing agents will be completely honest in their disclosure to you.  Sometimes that happens, many times it does not.  In California 90% of real estate lawsuits have to do with non-disclosure.</p>
<p>Thus is the logic for a reasonable period of time for a buyer to perform his due diligence and determine that the property is acceptable &#8211; this works in the real world and gives everyone the opportunity to move through the process.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://raincityguide.com/2009/08/11/lawyers-provide-better-representation-pt-2-of-4/#comment-342481</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://raincityguide.com/?p=7372#comment-342481</guid>
		<description>Actually, Jeffrey, I think there is a big difference between lawyers and agents in regards to the character of the provider.  I agree that, ultimately, it is the most important consideration, it should be made on a case-by-case basisi, and there are &quot;bad actors&quot; in both professions.  Unlike agents, however, attorneys have many more -- and more meaningful -- safeguards in place to insure that, on a general and system-wide basis, the service provider will not engage in wrongful conduct.  When hiring an attorney, the client need not enter into a special agreement just to insure that his interests are not compromised in favor of the agent.  The client need not enter into a convoluted agreement concerning how the attorney will be compensated so as to minimize or eliminate any conflict of interest.  Rather, when a client hires an attorney, the client is protected automatically from these sorts of conflicts.  The same is not true with agents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Jeffrey, I think there is a big difference between lawyers and agents in regards to the character of the provider.  I agree that, ultimately, it is the most important consideration, it should be made on a case-by-case basisi, and there are &#8220;bad actors&#8221; in both professions.  Unlike agents, however, attorneys have many more &#8212; and more meaningful &#8212; safeguards in place to insure that, on a general and system-wide basis, the service provider will not engage in wrongful conduct.  When hiring an attorney, the client need not enter into a special agreement just to insure that his interests are not compromised in favor of the agent.  The client need not enter into a convoluted agreement concerning how the attorney will be compensated so as to minimize or eliminate any conflict of interest.  Rather, when a client hires an attorney, the client is protected automatically from these sorts of conflicts.  The same is not true with agents.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://raincityguide.com/2009/08/11/lawyers-provide-better-representation-pt-2-of-4/#comment-342480</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:39:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://raincityguide.com/?p=7372#comment-342480</guid>
		<description>Hmmm, I&#039;m no Republican, but I think governmental dictate as to the terms of private contracts is a little overreaching.  People need to look after themselves -- the government should only be involved in prohibiting unfair or deceptive practices and/or regulating the actual mechanics of markets.  There should not be a government-mandated contract.  What you call a &quot;waste of time&quot; is really a process that allows each individual to decide what is in his or her best interest.

One other comment: I am unclear on why you think seller&#039;s should pay for listing AND selling/buyer&#039;s agents.  If you want &quot;buyer protection,&quot; then shouldn&#039;t the buyer pay for representation so that the loyalty to the buyer is clear?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm, I&#8217;m no Republican, but I think governmental dictate as to the terms of private contracts is a little overreaching.  People need to look after themselves &#8212; the government should only be involved in prohibiting unfair or deceptive practices and/or regulating the actual mechanics of markets.  There should not be a government-mandated contract.  What you call a &#8220;waste of time&#8221; is really a process that allows each individual to decide what is in his or her best interest.</p>
<p>One other comment: I am unclear on why you think seller&#8217;s should pay for listing AND selling/buyer&#8217;s agents.  If you want &#8220;buyer protection,&#8221; then shouldn&#8217;t the buyer pay for representation so that the loyalty to the buyer is clear?</p>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://raincityguide.com/2009/08/11/lawyers-provide-better-representation-pt-2-of-4/#comment-342479</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://raincityguide.com/?p=7372#comment-342479</guid>
		<description>David -- the lawyer&#039;s compensation will depend on the terms of the fee agreement.  I can tell you from personal experience that the attorney might not be entitled to any additional compensation simply because he had to draft a second or even third offer.  

As for &quot;it seems like you don&#039;t care&quot;:  I think the same can be said of any service provider.  Hey, your doctor gets paid for the visit, even if she doesn&#039;t cure your problem.  Does that mean the doctor does not care?  Certainly not -- or if you believe otherwise, then you must lead a tortured existence, having to pay people for services when they really don&#039;t give a hoot about you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David &#8212; the lawyer&#8217;s compensation will depend on the terms of the fee agreement.  I can tell you from personal experience that the attorney might not be entitled to any additional compensation simply because he had to draft a second or even third offer.  </p>
<p>As for &#8220;it seems like you don&#8217;t care&#8221;:  I think the same can be said of any service provider.  Hey, your doctor gets paid for the visit, even if she doesn&#8217;t cure your problem.  Does that mean the doctor does not care?  Certainly not &#8212; or if you believe otherwise, then you must lead a tortured existence, having to pay people for services when they really don&#8217;t give a hoot about you.</p>
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		<title>By: JimN</title>
		<link>http://raincityguide.com/2009/08/11/lawyers-provide-better-representation-pt-2-of-4/#comment-342478</link>
		<dc:creator>JimN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://raincityguide.com/?p=7372#comment-342478</guid>
		<description>I think adding lawyers to the process is a step in the wrong direction.  Again, as a buyer, what I want is more transparency, not more layers of opaque glass.   Less lawyers and less agents.
I do want more buyer protection.  

If I could start over, I would actually envision a system that listing and selling agents are hired by sellers to get the best price for their clients.  The fees are negociated by them in a competitive marketplace.  They work hard to market the property for the seller. 

As a buyer, I would have the opportunity to shop the properties being marketed.  I wouldn&#039;t need to have a &quot;buyer&#039;s&quot; agent or lawyer.  I would be aware of the known issues or sellers disclosure prior to making the offer.  I would then be required to be be approved on financing prior to the offer.  Then I could make an offer, subject of course to title, inspections for unknown problems etc.  Strong government laws/regulations would dictate the sales agreement in a transparent, standard way in plain language. 

As it appears to be now, I make an much more tentative offer based on more contingencies and earnest money that often make it a large waste of everyone&#039;s time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think adding lawyers to the process is a step in the wrong direction.  Again, as a buyer, what I want is more transparency, not more layers of opaque glass.   Less lawyers and less agents.<br />
I do want more buyer protection.  </p>
<p>If I could start over, I would actually envision a system that listing and selling agents are hired by sellers to get the best price for their clients.  The fees are negociated by them in a competitive marketplace.  They work hard to market the property for the seller. </p>
<p>As a buyer, I would have the opportunity to shop the properties being marketed.  I wouldn&#8217;t need to have a &#8220;buyer&#8217;s&#8221; agent or lawyer.  I would be aware of the known issues or sellers disclosure prior to making the offer.  I would then be required to be be approved on financing prior to the offer.  Then I could make an offer, subject of course to title, inspections for unknown problems etc.  Strong government laws/regulations would dictate the sales agreement in a transparent, standard way in plain language. </p>
<p>As it appears to be now, I make an much more tentative offer based on more contingencies and earnest money that often make it a large waste of everyone&#8217;s time.</p>
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