Are formal dining rooms becoming obsolete? Are huge master suites too “selfish” for today’s changing society? Is “keeping up with the Joneses” turning into “Cutting down with the Joneses”?
In a market projected to be flat at best for the foreseeable future, these questions are fast becoming very important for each home buyer to ask and answer, each in their own way.
In the age of “me”, me being the parents vs. the children, the places where children “go” in their home got smaller and smaller. Families used to spend more time together in the “living” room until the children were banished to the “family room” and the living room became a “formal” living room that most no one ever used. People gathered in the kitchen with friends and family, until the “formal” dining room became a place and space ONLY used once in a while when “guests” came. As if the kitchen was OK for the kids, but the visitors were somehow more important, so much so that we paid big money for a special room just for “guests” vs the family on an everyday basis.
Beyond price per square foot, it is time for home buyers to determine price per square foot of WHAT? Forget about how it currently “works”. It’s time to change how it works.
First Floor = 1,630 sf of which only 534 square feet represent rooms the children enter on a regular basis. The rest is “formal” living room, “formal” dining room, “Dad’s” study, “grand” staircase and foyer. Even if you throw in the 1/2 bath, the space the children live in is smaller than the square footage of the attached 3 car garage at 660 sf.
When did the children become entitled to less space than the cars?
Second Floor = 1,260 sf of which each child’s bedroom is only 130 sf. If you have two children and throw in the bathroom they share at 5 x 8, that gives them 380 sf on the second floor. Let’s be generous and give them an open loft “bonus” room to do their homework in at 15 x 15 and you still have a full HALF of the second floor devoted to master suites and grand staircases.
2,890 sf of home plus 660 sf of garage = 3,550 sf of which only 1,165 sf is space the children enter on a regular basis. The “children’s” place is not even double the amount devoted to housing the cars. Given the “children’s” space includes the kitchen and the family room, that’s just sad.
Let’s put a price tag of $550,000 on this home = $154 per square foot including the garage. 1,165 sf times $154 = $180,500 of that $550,000 devoted to the “family” and places where the children go on a daily basis. That’s about $370,000 for formal areas, master bedrooms and baths, showy staircases and places to put the cars.
Do you really want to spend $380,000 for places your children don’t enjoy?
Put this house on a small lot, as a zero lot line home, and we have to ask ourselves: I know we’ve come a long way, we’re changing day to day. But tell me, where do the children play?
P.S. “Thneeds” in the video are things you “think you need – thneed”, because someone told you so. The singer is Cat Stevens (born Steven Demetre Georgiou) now known as Yusuf Islam.
Boy did Cat Steven’song sure bring back memories…both of music I enjoyed rather than endured, and a time when we sold homes as dreams for the future rather than a sharp calculation of what is usually an incorrect square foot number in the MLS. Starting my career in brownstone-filed Georgetown in D.C. family and child space was always an emotional part of the sale-what happened?
This is such a great point! There are so many McMansions that have been built in recent times, its pretty hideous. My grandparents bought a house in a long track of these giant homes, and sure it is nice on the inside but why do 2 retired people need 7 bedrooms? Its completely senseless, and the only reason that they bought it is because everyone else was buying a big house. Personally, I think that I could live in a medium sized condo space forever and be just fine as long as I had some yard/gardening room
The only Right Sized Family Home is the one your own family needs at that time in their own lives. I’ve helped many a family (including my own) create the home they’ve needed when they needed it. As my clients and we did, we built a home for little kids, bigger kids, the kid who stayed home after the others
went off to college). And last- the “empty nest”. JG
https://knol.google.com/k/jerry-gropp-architect-aia/-/246qxuxd260sm/137#edit
The only Right Sized Family Home is the one your own family needs at that time in their own lives. I’ve helped many a family (including my own) create the home they’ve needed when they needed it. As my clients and we did, we built a home for little kids, bigger kids, the kid who stayed home after the others
went off to college). And last- the “empty nest”. JG
https://knol.google.com/k/jerry-gropp-architect-aia/-/246qxuxd260sm/137#edit
Didn’t listen to the song but this is a great point you make Ardell. Most new construction I see these days is more geared towards first time appeal to the eye rather than everyday utility and has the same problems that you mention.
Ironical that people who want to buy/upgrade to new home typically do so for the kids.
WaileaKid,
I saw the shift in the late 80s to early nineties. The master “suite” got bigger and bigger and the children’s rooms got smaller and smaller. The children spend more time in their room than the parents. How big does the “Master” bathroom have to get? (and who the heck IS “the master”) 🙂
I can’t tell you how many I times I go to people’s homes and they really only LIVE in 25% of it. The formal areas sometimes aren’t even furnished. Just a waste of heating and cooling bills.
Watch the video…I really think you’ll like it. I had the great pleasure of seeing Cat Stevens in concert back in the day. Am very glad I went, given he “wasn’t available” for a very long time in between now and then.
When there’s a re-marriage, the new wife’s kids’ Bedrooms get shifted way to the other end of the house and the MBR Suite gets ever fancier- with regard to: “I saw the shift in the late 80s to early nineties. The master “suite
I have been looking at houses and I am SO TIRED of seeing giant master suites in the attic. Would much rather see two nice children’s rooms up there.
You just described our house old house in Ballard. We always wished the kids rooms were in the attic and the master downstairs as well!
With three girls, I wish I had a huge, three-person bathroom complete with a sound system and lounge chair. We spend so much time together in there anyways, might as well be comfortable and have some fun.
formal living rooms. obsolete since leave it to beaver, probably a waste of space even then.
ardell, i love this comment: “When did the children become entitled to less space than the cars?”
the only time i could see when that would make sense is when the subject vehicle is a c6 z06 corvette.
There was literally no place in my home growing up that was “off limits” to the children. With 7 children it’s hard to keep them out of any space. We didn’t have a traditional home or anything “formal” as the front of our “house” was my Dad’s record store.
I remember feeling sorry for the neighbor children. The Vitales who lived next door had furniture that was all covered in heavy plastic and the Prince Family two doors down had big velvet sofas that the grandmother would fluff up and no one was allowed to sit on 🙂
As to Floor Plans, it’s not only the arrangement that counts, but how the various elements relate to each other and the circulation patterns. And of course, the underlying structure governs all the preceding considerations. Watch this space for the Floor Plans of our own “Kid-Raising Barn” that worked pretty well. JG
And now for something completely different- (from Las Vegas). I’m always amazed at the various RE Scenes. JG http://veryvintagevegas.com/
Woww…if MJ were still alive he’d like lots of room for the kids to play!
unless youre in the duggar family, no one actually needs more than 2200 sq ft.
fillmore,
Depends if you are counting the basement in that 2,200 sf.
i include the footprint of every floor plate. the determination found in county records is sometimes random, or just not accurate.
One of my clients recently put an addition on her home and was following the Sarah Susanka “no so big house” mindset. It turned out fantastic since they concentrated on putting high quality workmanship into the project, but overall not adding a considerable amount of square footage.
As it turns out, as they tried to convert the construction loan to permanent financing, it is the appraiser(s) who have made a stink over square footage… not enough they say.
One of my clients recently put an addition on her home and was following the Sarah Susanka “no so big house” mindset. It turned out fantastic since they concentrated on putting high quality workmanship into the project, but overall not adding a considerable amount of square footage.
As it turns out, as they tried to convert the construction loan to permanent financing, it is the appraiser(s) who have made a stink over square footage… not enough they say.
Financing a remodel is very difficult these days. Was that recent, Doug? Hard enough to finance a purchase, let alone a remodel.
It was a 2008 project that ran into 2009.
Doug,
I’ve read hundreds of articles in my life about the return on home improvements. Rarely do any say there is 100% return on the investment. So it likely isn’t practical to think that you can finance 100% of the improvements, nor is it reasonable to think the appraiser will value them at the cost of doing them.
The reason one does home improvements is to improve your home and the quality of life therein. Not everything has to be quantified in terms of resale or economic return.
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Strictly “on thread”- “That Family Room Has a Certain Star Quality in ‘Levittown’” – NYTimes.com http://tinyurl.com/l5uwhx
Jerry,
Wonderful link! I’ll have to read it more carefully in the morning. Busy day and just saw it. Interesting concept of how small homes affected relationships and stunted personality growth. We may need to examine this before we decide to “go small”.
Leavittown was before your time- people got by with simpler, smaller homes back then. LOL J-
Jerry,
I know Levittowner’s well, as I sold them in Bucks County, PA. My cousin Vincent lived in one for years…may still live there.
The house I grew up in we moved to when I was 3 in 1957, so not so much before my time 🙂 But we lived on top of the record store on the main drag (Lancaster Avenue, the first paved road in the U.S.)in a big 100 plus year old brick rowhome with 12 foot ceilings on the main floor.
My parents paid $7,000 for it.
Ardell- Definitely before your NorthWest time- inspired by Leavittown- Mountlake Terrace — Thumbnail History from HistoryLink-
“Mountlake Terrace — not to be confused with “Montlake” and no longer to be simply called “Terrace” — began life as a speculator’s dream. In 1949, developer Albert LaPierre and his partner, Jack Peterson, bought an abandoned airstrip on logged-over land about 12 miles north of Seattle, just over the Snohomish County line, and began filling it with 640-square-foot cinder-block houses, priced at $4,999 and aimed at World War II veterans with young families. They named their development Mountlake Terrace because from some parts of the property they could see both Mount Rainier and Lake Washington, and the old runway looked a little like a terrace. Buyers snapped up the modest houses as fast as they could be built. By 1954, when Mountlake Terrace was incorporated, it was one of the fastest-growing communities in Washington state. The growth stalled in the late 1970s, however. A quintessential suburb, designed for the automobile, Mountlake Terrace has struggled to redefine itself in recent years, with controversial efforts to create a more centralized, pedestrian-friendly “downtown.””.
Inspired by Mountlake Terrace- Seattle’s Leavittown.
The NCMA asked me to design these NorthWest Contemporary concrete block homes which were published and built all over the world. J-
http://www.lottaliving.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14503
Inspired by Mountlake Terrace- Seattle’s Leavittown.
The NCMA asked me to design these NorthWest Contemporary concrete block homes which were published and built all over the world. J-
http://www.lottaliving.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14503
Good morning,Jerry.
The link is causing me to play Summerwind and say Ring a ding ding 🙂
In PA, most people wanted a 4 bedroom colonial with a basement.
In FL you could hardly sell a house that wasn’t concrete block construction, regardless of style, because of extensive termite activity there. The worst cases of LP siding I have seen, I saw in Florida due to humidity and constant water sprinkling of the lawns that poured on the lower rungs of the siding.
I remember Disney participating in a community that looked like a movie set with all the fancy, victorian era look porch gingerbread done in plastic vs. wood, to outperform in rot producing locations.
Different places build with different materials. When in L.A. by the ocean, wrought iron was replaced with plastic and materials that were not as susceptible to salt water caused erosion.
Seems to me that here in the Pacific Northwest, composite shingle can be a breeding ground for moss on the roof. Makes me wonder why we see them so often here, vs metal or other less moss-prone materials.
and to you Ardell- My WebSite opens with a metal roof redo that I put on a client’s home. Your right-on comment- “Seems to me that here in the Pacific Northwest, composite shingle can be a breeding ground for moss on the roof. Makes me wonder why we see them so often here, vs metal or other less moss-prone materials” is explained by cost and marketing. Metal roofs cost twice as much as compo but last indefinitely.
As to: “Different places build with different materials”, Ardell, you are so right. This I learned during my long ago New Homes Guide Days. http://tinyurl.com/lzuteh
Jerry,
I am abnormally fascinated by the topic of roof materials, life expectancy of various roof materials and such. For instance one neighborhood says do not replace a cedar shingle roof with a new one as they are a fire hazard. Another has no such objection.
Personally I think more maintenance free roofing is needed in the Pacific Northwest as people simply do not want to spend their “free” time mowing big lots or keeping landscaping trimmed to size or performing annual cleanup maintenance of their roof.
The trend for small lot and low maintenance angers some…but pleases the majority of today’s home buyers. So what roof will list in this area with little or no maintenance?
The Levittown style seems to be a “rolled roof” as the norm. I am running into these more and more in the last 3 weeks. Your opinion on roof types, pro and con, would be much appreciated.
As an aside, I do notice that perhaps coincidentally, composite shingle roofs that have metal valleys vs the acceptable overlapped shingle at the turn, seem to be higher quality in all aspects of the roof job. It’s like a little signal that the owner didn’t “skimp” when doing the roof.
I also wonder if the plural of roof is roofs or rooves 🙂
Ardell- I’m with you in being very tuned in to good roofs. (These are akin to good marriages- highly essential to one’s happiness). Our first home (as shown on the NHG cover per the link above) had a flat roof as does our last home (shown on my WebSite). Our Lopez place (also shown therein) had a cedar shingle roof which we replaced with a metal roof which was a huge improvement. All of which is a long approach to my architect answer to what’s a good roof- pitched- metal is best by far, flat- “torch-down” is best (if maintained).
However, certain plan arrangements have to have flat roofs, others require pitched roofs due to the geometry involved.
Ardell- Here’s a link to one of my homes that we earlier had to build with a flat roof due to lot restrictions. When the original uphill owners moved on, the new ones let us to remake the roof into a low-pitched metal one. As you can see, it took a bit of doing but it was worth the effort. J-
http://tiny.cc/0L0vO
Ardell- Here’s a link to one of my homes that we earlier had to build with a flat roof due to lot restrictions. When the original uphill owners moved on, the new ones let us to remake the roof into a low-pitched metal one. As you can see, it took a bit of doing but it was worth the effort. J-
http://tiny.cc/0L0vO
Great photos, Jerry.
I thought rubber roofs were going to replace metal ones due to noise factors? I’m going back some years here, but I remember neighbors complaining about metal roofs in a hailstorm.
What happened to rubber vs. metal?
That’s the problem with metal roofs (and metal airplanes and metal helmets) hailstorm noise. I well remember the latter from Amarillo AFB where I was stationed during WW2. I remodeled a house with rubber shakes last year- these worked out fine- hard to tell they weren’t cedar. J-