Cleaning up after yourself is in the contract…
Recently, there seems to be some confusion as to item number 5 of the NWMLS form 22D (optional clauses addendum to the purchase and sale agreement). Maybe the sellers are deciding that the buyer already got a good deal and they shouldn’t leave the home in decent condition? ARDELL recently mentioned that some sellers are feeling disenchanted with this market and as a result the houses are not being exhibited in their best light. This is definitely happening and unfortunately is being carried forward to when the sale closes and home ownership is transferred.
Item #5 on the NWMLS Form 22D:
“Items Left By Seller.Any personal property, fixtures or other items remaining on the Property when possession is transferred to Buyer shall thereupon become the property of Buyer, and may be retained or disposed of as Buyer determines. However, Seller agrees to clean the interiors of any structures and remove all trash, debris, and rubbish on the Property prior to Buyer taking possession.“
Plainly stated: Take all your belongings and clean the property prior to handing over the keys. Clear enough? One would think, but what about when you line item #5 up to item #4 in the very same Form 22D and apply it to a seller who never had their home clean to begin with and had trash all over the place while the home was being shown?
Item #4 of 22D addresses the issue of “Property and Grounds Maintained
I haven’t sold or purchased a home in WA yet, but I would assume this is something that could be put into (or as an addendum) to the sale contract, no?
Back east, my real estate attorney specified exactly what was staying and what was going in the contract as part of the sale. Handling it that way certainly removed any ambiguity.
I haven’t sold or purchased a home in WA yet, but I would assume this is something that could be put into (or as an addendum) to the sale contract, no?
Back east, my real estate attorney specified exactly what was staying and what was going in the contract as part of the sale. Handling it that way certainly removed any ambiguity.
Hi Gene – The contract here does address these issues specifically already and as long as the Form 22D (Optional Clauses) is included then theoretically it should all be covered. It is interesting to me, though, how many homes are not only shown in this “trashed up” condition, but also left that way when it comes time to change possession over.
Well, during the bubble/peak times, I saw a lot of houses that… were not well kept. The excuse at that time was “well, it’s going to sell anyway”. It seems there is always some excuse and really, it only hurts the seller. The place will either a) not sell, especially in this market, b) not sell as quickly and/or c) sell for less than it could. I know, I’m preaching to the choir in this case though.
One would think that people would do a little basic work to maximize their return. A little under a year ago, I sold a place back east to the first person who saw it. The market was already pretty slow, but I made sure the place was clean, staged it nicely and set a fair price.
I’ll keep Form 22D (Optional Cluases) in mind when I eventually go to buy again and will make sure everything is spelled out! Thanks.
Well, during the bubble/peak times, I saw a lot of houses that… were not well kept. The excuse at that time was “well, it’s going to sell anyway”. It seems there is always some excuse and really, it only hurts the seller. The place will either a) not sell, especially in this market, b) not sell as quickly and/or c) sell for less than it could. I know, I’m preaching to the choir in this case though.
One would think that people would do a little basic work to maximize their return. A little under a year ago, I sold a place back east to the first person who saw it. The market was already pretty slow, but I made sure the place was clean, staged it nicely and set a fair price.
I’ll keep Form 22D (Optional Cluases) in mind when I eventually go to buy again and will make sure everything is spelled out! Thanks.
You are right! Pretty much that is exactly what it takes to present things nicely in any market and most of the basic items are free or cheap. The Magic Eraser does wonders on walls – I always buy them for sellers and have them go to town, but even fresh paint is the easiest thing in the world, but some will and some won’t.
The good thing about the 22D too, Gene, is item # 4 does allow for that walk through within five days prior to possession if you need it.
You are right! Pretty much that is exactly what it takes to present things nicely in any market and most of the basic items are free or cheap. The Magic Eraser does wonders on walls – I always buy them for sellers and have them go to town, but even fresh paint is the easiest thing in the world, but some will and some won’t.
The good thing about the 22D too, Gene, is item # 4 does allow for that walk through within five days prior to possession if you need it.
I’m not sure what the problem is. Do you all not walk through the property for a final inspection? I do on each and every transaction. At least 25 times in the last 5 years my Buyers have refused to sign based on filth, things missing, or junk left in the yard, house, and garage. If seller does NOT comply do not let your Buyers sign. A simple extension can be done until the home is suitable.
Pictures of the scene must be taken by the Buyers Agent. They will speak volumes in Court when attempting to reclaim the earnest money after arbitration. Or simply ask the selling Agent to utilize “their” commission to rectify the situation.
Problem solved!
I’m not sure what the problem is. Do you all not walk through the property for a final inspection? I do on each and every transaction. At least 25 times in the last 5 years my Buyers have refused to sign based on filth, things missing, or junk left in the yard, house, and garage. If seller does NOT comply do not let your Buyers sign. A simple extension can be done until the home is suitable.
Pictures of the scene must be taken by the Buyers Agent. They will speak volumes in Court when attempting to reclaim the earnest money after arbitration. Or simply ask the selling Agent to utilize “their” commission to rectify the situation.
Problem solved!
Hi Ray -I do walkthroughs with buyers prior to close and we let the listing agent know of the status of the home, but nine times out of ten the buyer still wants to close on time. That is their choice so I wouldn’t say that it is a simple fix to make a seller comply with a contractual agreement.
Each transaction is going to be different, but it is in no way the selling agent’s responsibility to throw money at it (and if you are talking about reclaiming earnest money then you are assuming a sale is not going through any way so there would be no selling office commission). The seller needs to take responsibility.
You are right about the pictures – pictures are vital! I always snap a few in the beginning and some more at the inspection and then more before close and after.
Hi Ray -I do walkthroughs with buyers prior to close and we let the listing agent know of the status of the home, but nine times out of ten the buyer still wants to close on time. That is their choice so I wouldn’t say that it is a simple fix to make a seller comply with a contractual agreement.
Each transaction is going to be different, but it is in no way the selling agent’s responsibility to throw money at it (and if you are talking about reclaiming earnest money then you are assuming a sale is not going through any way so there would be no selling office commission). The seller needs to take responsibility.
You are right about the pictures – pictures are vital! I always snap a few in the beginning and some more at the inspection and then more before close and after.
I have ALWAYS found it to be a simple fix. In my past the selling agent has paid because it was neglect from THEIR client. In/re to earnest money if my Buyer walks you must have your ducks in order to reclaim the earnest money. I will assume the seller will not release it easily in arbitration so in Court the pictures will be vital.
In Washington the “selling agent” represents the buyer and the “listing agent” represents the seller so we must not be speaking of the same thing since obviously it would be the seller’s fault not leaving the house clean not the buyer’s. Or were you actually referring to the selling agent and it being neglect on the buyer’s end?
Interesting discussion there between Ray and Courtney.
There’s an old saying (in the Bible even) that “a leopard can’t change his spots”. If the house is filthy and full of trash, it’s unlikely the people are going to turn into clean freaks on moving day.
If I am writing an offer on a vacant property with a lot of crap left behind, I tell the buyer on the spot that Mr. and Mrs. Gone are not likely coming back to get anything. Setting realistic expectations helps head off problems before they become problems.
Pointing to a boilerplate requirement, and ignoring what you can predict will likely happen, only leads to last minute unhappiness for everyone. A Form 34 laying out what happens if the seller doesn’t clean it, helps to establish realistic expectations and provides for the monies needed for cleanup.
In twenty years I’ve never seen a clean house turn filthy on closing day, nor have I seen a filthy house turn totally clean on closing day. Writing in an amount to be held for cleaning and debris removal, not on every contract but on the ones you can anticipate might have a problem, is the best way to handle this from day one.
Closing day should not have surprises, except the occasional trash out on the curb waiting for trash day 🙂
Interesting discussion there between Ray and Courtney.
There’s an old saying (in the Bible even) that “a leopard can’t change his spots”. If the house is filthy and full of trash, it’s unlikely the people are going to turn into clean freaks on moving day.
If I am writing an offer on a vacant property with a lot of crap left behind, I tell the buyer on the spot that Mr. and Mrs. Gone are not likely coming back to get anything. Setting realistic expectations helps head off problems before they become problems.
Pointing to a boilerplate requirement, and ignoring what you can predict will likely happen, only leads to last minute unhappiness for everyone. A Form 34 laying out what happens if the seller doesn’t clean it, helps to establish realistic expectations and provides for the monies needed for cleanup.
In twenty years I’ve never seen a clean house turn filthy on closing day, nor have I seen a filthy house turn totally clean on closing day. Writing in an amount to be held for cleaning and debris removal, not on every contract but on the ones you can anticipate might have a problem, is the best way to handle this from day one.
Closing day should not have surprises, except the occasional trash out on the curb waiting for trash day 🙂
Ray,
What do you do if you represent the seller who doesn’t clean it and remove the trash from the house?
OOOOOOOOOOOOOPS..Now Courtney you knew I meant Listing Agent. I alot myself just 10 minutes a day to blog. I bounce from here, to Bubble, to Red Fin, to CNBC. I need to slowwww it down a bit.
But over the years when my client used bad judgement I paid. When it was their client I requested them to pay. I mean Good Lord! I used to get 3% so there was great wealth to be had on a deal closing. Now my margins are far less, and if need be, I will clean the place myself to satisfy the Buyers!
OOOOOOOOOOOOOPS..Now Courtney you knew I meant Listing Agent. I alot myself just 10 minutes a day to blog. I bounce from here, to Bubble, to Red Fin, to CNBC. I need to slowwww it down a bit.
But over the years when my client used bad judgement I paid. When it was their client I requested them to pay. I mean Good Lord! I used to get 3% so there was great wealth to be had on a deal closing. Now my margins are far less, and if need be, I will clean the place myself to satisfy the Buyers!
Ray,
That answered my question too. You are right, of course. There’s hardly an agent in the Country who hasn’t pitched in and cleaned or helped to clean a house on closing day 🙂
Often I do a walk through before my buyer clients see it, to make sure they are not involved in “the drama” of the house being left in bad form. By the time they see it, they don’t have to get upset waiting to see what will happen next.
I’ve had a seller store stuff in my garage, I’ve had my car filled with my seller’s clothes from their closet, I’ve had to run mattresses down from the second floor 🙂 This business is never all about the paper trail.
I think you lost us, Ray, talking about “Earnest Money”. Not wanting to buy a house because of these issues is very, very rare. I wouldn’t promise someone they can get their Earnest Money back because the house was dirty. It would have to be pretty dramatically in bad shape to warrant the buyer risking being in breach of contract.
I’ve never in 20 year had a buyer who had to be disappointed by not getting the house at all, over cleanliness or debris issues. I think that would be a pretty rare event. Have you really had someone cancel a sale over crap left in the house on closing day?
Ray,
That answered my question too. You are right, of course. There’s hardly an agent in the Country who hasn’t pitched in and cleaned or helped to clean a house on closing day 🙂
Often I do a walk through before my buyer clients see it, to make sure they are not involved in “the drama” of the house being left in bad form. By the time they see it, they don’t have to get upset waiting to see what will happen next.
I’ve had a seller store stuff in my garage, I’ve had my car filled with my seller’s clothes from their closet, I’ve had to run mattresses down from the second floor 🙂 This business is never all about the paper trail.
I think you lost us, Ray, talking about “Earnest Money”. Not wanting to buy a house because of these issues is very, very rare. I wouldn’t promise someone they can get their Earnest Money back because the house was dirty. It would have to be pretty dramatically in bad shape to warrant the buyer risking being in breach of contract.
I’ve never in 20 year had a buyer who had to be disappointed by not getting the house at all, over cleanliness or debris issues. I think that would be a pretty rare event. Have you really had someone cancel a sale over crap left in the house on closing day?
ARDELL – Yes, we do what it takes don’t we? Cleaning, car filled, and more! Life happens for both buyers and sellers and our job is to make at least this part of it go more smoothly.
Ray, ARDELL is exactly right – you lost me with the mention of earnest money so I wasn’t sure which side you were referring to – thanks for coming back to clarify:)
I think Ardell and Courtney are speaking form sage wisdom here. Things are usually as they appear. And setting realistic expectations diffuses most misunderstandings before they happen.
When items and property are obviously abandoned and the “You’re probably going to inherent this” discussion doesn’t go well with the buyer, it’s time to itemize the removal in an addendum and start talking about the cost of what the removal would be.
All of this should happen before writing the Purchase and Sale Agreement.
Red flags to watch for are nonoperational vehicles, large older appliances, dusty items in storage sheds, anything weighing over 100lbs that looks unused, and anything damaged or broken in a basement.
I will try to clarify. When I got my real estate license in Washington it was solely because of investors. I worked with clients that if the sale would not go their way they would walk. They would enter into contractual agreements and place earnest money down. As the transactions went from feasibility, finance, inspection, and close many problems could occur.
Ardell I must have closed 1000 transactions in mostly Nevada, Texas, and Washington as an Agent and as a non licensed investor networking group. Its a numbers game and many transactions are easy to close and many more are quite difficult. The key will always be that both clients are MOTIVATED for the same goal. If either loses the motivation the deal will die. Many times I went to arbitration to fight for earnest money held in escrow. It is simply unavoidable when you deal with investors.
I’m not sure where the confusion is but I will try to clarify, for all of you appear to have “sage” wisdom here (right Jim?) :
The property is set to close.
Final walk through.
Buyer dissatisfied.
Seller dissatisfied. (or gone)
Agents unwilling to part with commission.
Recission
Seller or Buyer unwilling to release earnest money.
Arbitration
Hope this helps and I assure you Ardell as your numbers of transactions increase it will eventually happen. Not every client is a happy residential homeowner or seller.
Ardell in all due respect it seems people continue to beat you up on the Bubble for doing that article. The abuse is not necessary but I want to emphasize this. There will be no bottom to this market for at least 5 years. Foreclosures will continue to soar every quarter. People will continue to walk throughout these 5 years. The investor network has always been right. They called the top the day World Savings was sold to Wachovia and unloaded backed on the brilliance of Herb and Marion Sandler. None are re-entering the market on a macro-level for they know we are still dropping about 35% further short term in the PNW. They are picking and choosing GEMS which I advise my clients to do.
The capital markets, banking, finance, and real estate will never be the same. All of our homes will be worth less in 2010-2015 then they are right now. I’m 42 years old and have been very well educated to the fact that in my life-time (about 40 years remaining) I will never see the homes priced at the peak of the bubble again of 2006-7. This becomes very helpful when assisting sellers in 2009 pricing their home. We are all educators and Buyers and Sellers must know the truth going forward about the TRUE hardships our country is facing.
Denial takes a long time to correct.
I will try to clarify. When I got my real estate license in Washington it was solely because of investors. I worked with clients that if the sale would not go their way they would walk. They would enter into contractual agreements and place earnest money down. As the transactions went from feasibility, finance, inspection, and close many problems could occur.
Ardell I must have closed 1000 transactions in mostly Nevada, Texas, and Washington as an Agent and as a non licensed investor networking group. Its a numbers game and many transactions are easy to close and many more are quite difficult. The key will always be that both clients are MOTIVATED for the same goal. If either loses the motivation the deal will die. Many times I went to arbitration to fight for earnest money held in escrow. It is simply unavoidable when you deal with investors.
I’m not sure where the confusion is but I will try to clarify, for all of you appear to have “sage” wisdom here (right Jim?) :
The property is set to close.
Final walk through.
Buyer dissatisfied.
Seller dissatisfied. (or gone)
Agents unwilling to part with commission.
Recission
Seller or Buyer unwilling to release earnest money.
Arbitration
Hope this helps and I assure you Ardell as your numbers of transactions increase it will eventually happen. Not every client is a happy residential homeowner or seller.
Ardell in all due respect it seems people continue to beat you up on the Bubble for doing that article. The abuse is not necessary but I want to emphasize this. There will be no bottom to this market for at least 5 years. Foreclosures will continue to soar every quarter. People will continue to walk throughout these 5 years. The investor network has always been right. They called the top the day World Savings was sold to Wachovia and unloaded backed on the brilliance of Herb and Marion Sandler. None are re-entering the market on a macro-level for they know we are still dropping about 35% further short term in the PNW. They are picking and choosing GEMS which I advise my clients to do.
The capital markets, banking, finance, and real estate will never be the same. All of our homes will be worth less in 2010-2015 then they are right now. I’m 42 years old and have been very well educated to the fact that in my life-time (about 40 years remaining) I will never see the homes priced at the peak of the bubble again of 2006-7. This becomes very helpful when assisting sellers in 2009 pricing their home. We are all educators and Buyers and Sellers must know the truth going forward about the TRUE hardships our country is facing.
Denial takes a long time to correct.
It is truly ashamed that people no longer respect others enough to treat them the way they would like to be treated. During a walk through, the house should be clean as it can be. This issue has brought me to boiling point and I have started to do something about it.
I have this happen a few time and it always seems to happen when a couple unsavory Realtors I know are representing the seller. After being the nice guy for way too long, I know tell them that if their seller’s home is not 100% that I will do all in my power to get my buyers to walk away from the deal. It’s a tough call as the buyer think you are crazy. I say I’m trying to stand up for what is right. I also tell the seller’s agent it better be clean or else.
Since the straen talks I have had with a couple agents, there has been improvement as they are relaying my message to the sellers. It seems to be working better than expected.
It is truly ashamed that people no longer respect others enough to treat them the way they would like to be treated. During a walk through, the house should be clean as it can be. This issue has brought me to boiling point and I have started to do something about it.
I have this happen a few time and it always seems to happen when a couple unsavory Realtors I know are representing the seller. After being the nice guy for way too long, I know tell them that if their seller’s home is not 100% that I will do all in my power to get my buyers to walk away from the deal. It’s a tough call as the buyer think you are crazy. I say I’m trying to stand up for what is right. I also tell the seller’s agent it better be clean or else.
Since the straen talks I have had with a couple agents, there has been improvement as they are relaying my message to the sellers. It seems to be working better than expected.