[photopress:inspectors.jpg,thumb,alignright]I am just beside myself on the topic of home inspectors and asbestos. I don’t care how many inspectors want to tell me why inspectors aren’t “obligated” to call asbestos in the inspection, I will still keep saying: “You have GOT to be KIDDING me!!
I’ve seen more asbestos in homes in the Seattle area than in my entire career to date around the Country.
“Well Ardell, I know we both “think” that’s asbestos were looking at there, but we really can’t say it’s asbestos unless we send it out to a lab and have it tested. So we just have this disclaimer in our contract saying we are not responsible for calling asbestos in the inspection…and that is sufficient for US” US being the home inspectors!!
Yesterday I literally took a razor tool from the inspector and cut open some paneling held together by duct tape in a basement and forced an inspector to look behind it before he wrote “inaccessible area” on the report! I said if you don’t lend me something to do this with, I’m going to use my bare hands!
How come I can get 10 average Joe’s to stand around the asbestos wrapped pipes, who will all say “Yep, dats asbestis alright”, but I can’t get one inspector to note asbestos in a home inspection report?
Oh, and here’s the agent’s lovely comment (I represent the seller and she represents the buyer) “Not my problem. The buyer chose their inspector and if the inspector doesn’t tell him what he needs to know…that’s not my problem, is it?”
In PA inspectors included “testing for radon” by setting canisters in the house and sending them to the lab. They couldn’t see radon or taste it or smell it, but they didn’t put a disclaimer in their contract saying “Duh, Don’t Know”.
Here’s a clue, Risk Reduction equals every buyer KNOWING WHAT the heck they are buying!!, not 25 disclaimer and disclosure forms covering everyone’s butts in the industry! And they have the nerve to tell me that they don’t want me at the inspection because I make them look bad…Oh WELL!!
And if you stick that pointy metal thing and chunk away at the mortar between the bricks of my seller’s house one more time in some silly act of macho bravado, I’m going to take it out of your and and stick it where you don’t want it stuck.
Some days I want to be a waitress…
To Stephane, this entire post should be in bold AND all caps! I am heeding your advice. But if you tell me to stop using !!exclamation points!!, we’ll have to agree to disagree 🙂
lol. Maybe in the future, inspectors will just stand at the top of the driveway and say, “yep,looks like it might be a house. Anything else?”
Tim,
My partner Kim adds to your comment “and make that check payable to…”
Ardell
One thing to keep in mind here is that asbestos is not inherently a bad thing. Many, many houses were built using asbestos in various manners and many of those houses are perfectly safe. Asbestos becomes dangerous when it is disturbed or becomes friable. Buyers should not think that just because a house has asbestos, they are going to die.
That said, if a buyer intends to do remodeling on a home, especially an older home, they should ask for invasive testing to determine the presence of asbestos as a remodeling project can get very expensive if there is asbestos remediation involved. Of course, if there is visible friable asbestos, the inspector should call it out.
I question your actions about ripping open a wall. True risk reduction is advising your clients to get the expert help they need and letting them decide if they want to spend the money for such help. Agents that try to be inspectors, surveyors, accountants, etc. are begging for a law suit.
Russ
Ardell
One thing to keep in mind here is that asbestos is not inherently a bad thing. Many, many houses were built using asbestos in various manners and many of those houses are perfectly safe. Asbestos becomes dangerous when it is disturbed or becomes friable. Buyers should not think that just because a house has asbestos, they are going to die.
That said, if a buyer intends to do remodeling on a home, especially an older home, they should ask for invasive testing to determine the presence of asbestos as a remodeling project can get very expensive if there is asbestos remediation involved. Of course, if there is visible friable asbestos, the inspector should call it out.
I question your actions about ripping open a wall. True risk reduction is advising your clients to get the expert help they need and letting them decide if they want to spend the money for such help. Agents that try to be inspectors, surveyors, accountants, etc. are begging for a law suit.
Russ
Russ,
When are you going to get it??…it was friable…it was very, very friable. It was so friable I was tempted to bring a couple of eggs.
As to your questioning my actions on cutting two cents worth of duct tape…all I can say is…thanks for making my point on the CYA of it all. Hey everyone, hire Russ to sue me…I’ll cough up a roll of duct tape.
Agents REPRESENT the buyer and/or the seller PERIOD! No one else…”represents the consumer” in the same capacity. Not the lender, not the inspector, not the accountant and not the surveyor. The agent is the top of the food chain, or they don’t deserve the big bucks.
If it’s time to pass off all of the responsibility, it’s time to go with $500 a pop commissions, and change everyone’s title to Transaction Broker or Paper Counter. 1, 2, 3, 4…14…23…OK, I have all my “paperwork”. Time to close escrow…NOT!
Russ,
When are you going to get it??…it was friable…it was very, very friable. It was so friable I was tempted to bring a couple of eggs.
As to your questioning my actions on cutting two cents worth of duct tape…all I can say is…thanks for making my point on the CYA of it all. Hey everyone, hire Russ to sue me…I’ll cough up a roll of duct tape.
Agents REPRESENT the buyer and/or the seller PERIOD! No one else…”represents the consumer” in the same capacity. Not the lender, not the inspector, not the accountant and not the surveyor. The agent is the top of the food chain, or they don’t deserve the big bucks.
If it’s time to pass off all of the responsibility, it’s time to go with $500 a pop commissions, and change everyone’s title to Transaction Broker or Paper Counter. 1, 2, 3, 4…14…23…OK, I have all my “paperwork”. Time to close escrow…NOT!
Ardell and Russ,
Both great points. I recently sold a house in the improving Bridgeport neighborhood of Chicago’s South Side near White Sox park.
The home was built in 1964, and barely had been touched (although, structually had been kept up). The old, ugly, yellow basement vinyl floor had just been covered up with a new ugly, yellow and white vinyl flooring.
Red flag. Why cover up this floor with another super cheap one? My clients are architects and suspected (correctly) abestos.
We had a really good inspector that came recommended from another person who purchased a similar house in the neighborhood. We pressed this issue with him when we looked at the exposed old tile. We received the same answer concerning his report… can not mention/confirm the abestos (which it was). However, he explained the whole bit about what Russ spoke about above. How it’s okay unless disturbed, how to remove, etc…
Because my clients are definately doing a “Re-Do” on the basement, they would create a “disturbance” of the abestos and would have had to for abatement.
Long story short, my clients opted to pay for the certified abestos inspection by the state, and the sellers agreed to pay for the abatement ($2000 in this case).
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Russ… I have a list of items that I make clients aware of. Abestos is on the list when buying an old home. Considering laws and safety restrict the way we clean up the mess, one must opt for a specialist or pony up for a newer home.
I agree with Ardell, that these idiot selling agents and seller’s act like they no clue what they are talking about… deer in headlights when we ask these questions!
It stinks… but we all can’t be insurance experts, doctors, nurses, contractors, abestos experts, moms, dads etc, etc… so we pay for services and prevention experts…
So, is the point that we should hire an inspector that WILL indicate abestos… I’m sure they are available for the right price.
Great Ardell,
I’m sure you can document when and where you became an expert in the detection of friable asbestos. You probably have no problems walking boundary lines because you are also expert in surveying, and providing tax advice because you are also a CPA, and telling a buyer about what they need to cure the water under the house because you are expert at water remediation, blah, blah, blah.
One of the biggest problems with the industry, from my myopic viewpoint, is that agents try to do too much. Trying to support the historical fee structure with services that are beyond the scope of the agency relationship and most agent’s training is ridiculous. It is not CYA. It is providing the best service to your client by referring them to someone that knows more than you do.
Russ
Great Ardell,
I’m sure you can document when and where you became an expert in the detection of friable asbestos. You probably have no problems walking boundary lines because you are also expert in surveying, and providing tax advice because you are also a CPA, and telling a buyer about what they need to cure the water under the house because you are expert at water remediation, blah, blah, blah.
One of the biggest problems with the industry, from my myopic viewpoint, is that agents try to do too much. Trying to support the historical fee structure with services that are beyond the scope of the agency relationship and most agent’s training is ridiculous. It is not CYA. It is providing the best service to your client by referring them to someone that knows more than you do.
Russ
Russ, Ardell,
hold on, popcorn not yet ready in the microwave. Ok. sitting down now,
continue…. 🙂
Russ, Ardell,
hold on, popcorn not yet ready in the microwave. Ok. sitting down now,
continue…. 🙂
Russ and Ardell, I think you mostly agree on this point. Great agents should not actually DO everything, but they should know enough to tell you if the professionals you’ve hired are doing their job and, like you said Russ, help you find the right professionals. So, they should be able to tell you what a home inspector did and didn’t do even if they don’t do the home inspection themselves.
I doubt Ardell walks the property line, but if it’s a concern, she should be able to tell a client if the surveyor is reputable and how she’s seen surveyors screw up boundary lines in the past.
Russ,
If inspectors can’t call the asbestos unless they send a sample to the lab…they should INCLUDE sending a sample to the lab as one of their services NOT add a clause, written by their attorney, to their contract that says “We won’t talk about asbestos at all, and you agree to that, and proceed at your own risk”.
Minimially the report should have a photograph of where they “suspect” asbestos to be present and say in the report “We suspect this floor tile, or pipe wrapping or popcorn ceiling contains asbests. Be sure to test for asbestos before closing.”
So what if it isn’t friable…what if the homeowner decides to do a “do it yourself” project and starts pulling it out after they purchase the home, not knowing it is an asbestos material!
OK buyers of homes…you decide. Do you WANT to know if the house you are buying contains asbestos, friable or not, or don’t you?
What good does it do me to have the inspector KNOW better than I that the house contains asbestos, if the inspector is not legally obligated or willing to note it in the inspection report??
As to my knowing more than you want me to know…that’s your problem not mine. Some attorneys are more worried about protecting the professionals, and some are more worried about protecting the consumer. I don’t know a consumer in this Country that wants me to pretend I’m not seeing something. Attorneys who protect the professionals say “Don’t go to the inspection at all” or “Stay outside and read a book and serve tea and crumpets”.
I don’t want an inspector who doesn’t squash the deal, whether I represent the buyer or the seller. I want an inspector who leaves no stone unturned and who at least “red flags” every possible concern. Then the “experts” can be called in to verify the findings.
If someone doesn’t raise the red flag, it’s hard to call in an expert to investigate the red flag issue. I don’t have to be an expert to see the red flag item.
Galen,
You don’t have to be a genius to see that the neighbor’s fence doesn’t line up with your parking pad and that one of you is encroaching on the other. Yes, I DO walk the property line, when appropriate. The Title Report sometimes gives you a clue as to when you should and should not walk that property line.
Seattle area DOES NOT by and large include a survey at time of sale. So “relying on the surveyor” SOUNDS good…except there isn’t one to rely on in a normal transaction. If I don’t wall the property line or read the Title Report and notice the obvious “possible” encroachment, what would cause a buyer to HIRE a sureveryor in the first place?
So what happens if I don’t see the red flags? I guess everyone sues each other after the fact, which is good for the lawyer business and bad for the consumers and the real estate professionals. Russ and I don’t have to agree, because we are not on the same side of that encroaching fence.
Ardell, I don’t think you got my point – it was not about surveyors. It was about the role of an agent, which, and I think you’ll agree with me here, is to do what the agent can confidently do and bring in qualified experts to do the rest. If you’re saying that Russ’ assertion is correct, that you really do think that agents should personally provide every bit of service in a transaction, I agree with Russ. But I don’t think you do – would you do away with inspectors altogether if you could?
It’s good to know if there is asbestos in a house, particularly if you’re haggling over the price or terms of the agreement, but Russ is right – it’s not that big a deal unless you’re hiring professionals to tear it out, at which point removal becomes really expensive. Tearing asbestos out of a house once in your life is not going to kill you – construction workers and miners went decades before developing mesothelioma, you’re not going to get it in 3 days. Yes, disposing of it can be difficult, but it’s definitely been done.
My home had popcorn ceilings when I bought it a year ago….I had NO idea that they were made of asbestos. When I added skylights, I then learned that I’d have to cut through the popcorn…which means I had to get the popcorn tested.
Turns out…yup…they had asbestos (it cost me something like $30 to scrape a sample area and drop it off at a lab). I had two choices at that point…take down the popcorn responsibly via an abatement service or scrape it myself, risking life & lung :> and the environmental impact guilt. Ultimately, it cost me $2,000 to have it scraped by an abatement contractor (who setup a sealed environment) and then I spent a lot of time and energy mudding, texturing and painting the celiings.
SO…my point is…if I had known about asbestos in the popcorn ceilings when I bought the house…I might have made different decisions. I wish my inspector and/or agent had given me a ‘heads’ up.
My home had popcorn ceilings when I bought it a year ago….I had NO idea that they were made of asbestos. When I added skylights, I then learned that I’d have to cut through the popcorn…which means I had to get the popcorn tested.
Turns out…yup…they had asbestos (it cost me something like $30 to scrape a sample area and drop it off at a lab). I had two choices at that point…take down the popcorn responsibly via an abatement service or scrape it myself, risking life & lung :> and the environmental impact guilt. Ultimately, it cost me $2,000 to have it scraped by an abatement contractor (who setup a sealed environment) and then I spent a lot of time and energy mudding, texturing and painting the celiings.
SO…my point is…if I had known about asbestos in the popcorn ceilings when I bought the house…I might have made different decisions. I wish my inspector and/or agent had given me a ‘heads’ up.
Galen,
What if “what the agent can confidently do” is unlock the door? What makes that “good enough” because that is all that particular agent can “confidently do”?
I love inspectors. I don’t like the fact that they don’t HAVE TO tell a buyer about the presence, or possible presence, of Asbestos.
How anyone can argue that it is OK for an inspector to turn a blind eye to asbestos is beyond me.
Stacy certainly agrees with me, don’t you Stacy. Anyone who has ever bought a house with asbestos, who wasn’t told about it in advance, will I’m quite sure, agree with me.
Do you know how many people scrape their own popcorn ceilings because no one warned them that popcorn ceilings may, and often do, contain asbestos?
I’m not arguing that it’s ok for an inspector to turn a blind eye, I’m just saying that it’s not always a huge deal if there is asbestos. My statement about the asbestos was about what to do once it has been identified. I know this is an unpopular position, but my understanding of the issue is that the risks from asbestos are overblown.
I stand by my assertion. Good agents provide guidance and the expertise they are qualified to provide. An agent that can confidently unlock the door cannot “know enough to tell you if the professionals you’ve hired are doing their job and, like you said Russ, help you find the right professionals.”
Galen,
I do think you are missing the point that in the Seattle area an inspector is not even supposed to mention the word asbestos, by home inspector standards. So who exactly is the professional who points out its existence?
Uncle!
Valid point.
Ardell,
I beg to differ. I could have three inspectors within a day who all were very willing to provide notation of possible asbestos when conducting a visible, non-invasive inspection. Might it cost more? Maybe. But please don’t generalize that you can’t find the right inspector if you are concerned about asbestos, mold, or the scary house problem de jour.
Your point about red flags is correct. An agent should point out the any red flags that they observe. The problem is that many agents (like apparently you) cannot control the urge to then investigate the red flag and opine as to whether the red flag is in fact a problem or not. That is where the problem starts. The buyer, not wanting to spend any more money than they absolutely have to, wants to have another trusted person (their agent) tell them that everything is OK and the agent eagerly obliges. How is the buyer served in this scenario?
For example, you say that you look at title reports to give you a clue as to whether there may be an encroachment (I would love to debate that point but it is best left for another thread). So you look at the title report. You either conclude for the buyer that all is well, go ahead and close cuz title looks fine or there is a red flag. I presume in the latter you refer them off to a lawyer to investigate the red flag but maybe not. As to the former, it sounds like you are willing to take on the role of expert in reviewing title matters because once you say all is good, you now own that role. I don’t know your expertise on title matters Ardell but I can tell you that 99% of agents are not expert enough to provide a title opinion. Not even close.
So why go there? Why not say, “You know buyer, I am really good at A,B and C but if you have concerns about X, Y and Z, you would be best served getting help from another service provider.” If the buyer doesn’t go there because they don’t want to spend the extra dough, why should the agent put themselves at risk just to appease that buyer?
Russ
Ardell,
I beg to differ. I could have three inspectors within a day who all were very willing to provide notation of possible asbestos when conducting a visible, non-invasive inspection. Might it cost more? Maybe. But please don’t generalize that you can’t find the right inspector if you are concerned about asbestos, mold, or the scary house problem de jour.
Your point about red flags is correct. An agent should point out the any red flags that they observe. The problem is that many agents (like apparently you) cannot control the urge to then investigate the red flag and opine as to whether the red flag is in fact a problem or not. That is where the problem starts. The buyer, not wanting to spend any more money than they absolutely have to, wants to have another trusted person (their agent) tell them that everything is OK and the agent eagerly obliges. How is the buyer served in this scenario?
For example, you say that you look at title reports to give you a clue as to whether there may be an encroachment (I would love to debate that point but it is best left for another thread). So you look at the title report. You either conclude for the buyer that all is well, go ahead and close cuz title looks fine or there is a red flag. I presume in the latter you refer them off to a lawyer to investigate the red flag but maybe not. As to the former, it sounds like you are willing to take on the role of expert in reviewing title matters because once you say all is good, you now own that role. I don’t know your expertise on title matters Ardell but I can tell you that 99% of agents are not expert enough to provide a title opinion. Not even close.
So why go there? Why not say, “You know buyer, I am really good at A,B and C but if you have concerns about X, Y and Z, you would be best served getting help from another service provider.” If the buyer doesn’t go there because they don’t want to spend the extra dough, why should the agent put themselves at risk just to appease that buyer?
Russ
Stick to the point Russ. If the inspector is told NOT to mention asbestos (unless someone asks) and that meets ASHI standards, then how is the average buyer to know that they should not be ripping out the popcorn ceiling with a putty knife, before having it tested for asbestos?
Here’s another one Russ, if the agent is present during a conversation between the buyer and her husband where the husband is saying he is going to scrape off the popcorn ceiling himself…what do you suggest the agent do? If the agent didn’t hear the word asbestos at (or didn’t even go to) the inspection, didn’t see the word asbestos in the report, and hears the buyer saying they are going to do a do it yourself popcorn ceiling removal…???
NOW pretend that is your son and daughter in law. What would you want THEIR agent to say to THEM? Stop using the lowest common denominator as the standard, and picture your son scraping asbestos off of a ceiling with your two year old grandchild crawling on the floor underneath him while he’s working.
Is “so sue someone” a good enough answer if it is your son and grand child…I think not. Better to raise the red flag…don’t you think?
Stick to the point Russ. If the inspector is told NOT to mention asbestos (unless someone asks) and that meets ASHI standards, then how is the average buyer to know that they should not be ripping out the popcorn ceiling with a putty knife, before having it tested for asbestos?
Here’s another one Russ, if the agent is present during a conversation between the buyer and her husband where the husband is saying he is going to scrape off the popcorn ceiling himself…what do you suggest the agent do? If the agent didn’t hear the word asbestos at (or didn’t even go to) the inspection, didn’t see the word asbestos in the report, and hears the buyer saying they are going to do a do it yourself popcorn ceiling removal…???
NOW pretend that is your son and daughter in law. What would you want THEIR agent to say to THEM? Stop using the lowest common denominator as the standard, and picture your son scraping asbestos off of a ceiling with your two year old grandchild crawling on the floor underneath him while he’s working.
Is “so sue someone” a good enough answer if it is your son and grand child…I think not. Better to raise the red flag…don’t you think?
The POINT Ardell is why would you as an agent refer your buyers to an inspector that would not point such things out. As I said, there are many fine inspectors in the area and it is your job as an agent to find them. And yes, if an agent who has knowledge that popcorn ceilings MAY contain asbestos, it would be great if they mentioned that to the buyer. It then becomes a buyer issue, not an agent issue, to determine how they want to proceed. Read my post again. Did I not say that pointing out red flags is desirable? Of course it is. The POINT Ardell is that many agents don’t stop there. They scrape some off themselves and taste it because they think they know what asbestos tastes like.
And the most important POINT of them all…is that many buyer agents don’t set clear enough expectations with their clients before showing them a single house as to what they will do for them and as importantly, what they won’t. As such, buyers think that the agents will do all and that is part of the “commission package.” The better approach is to actually sit down with the buyer before the engagement and discuss the scope of services that will be provided along with what will need to be provided by others. Set expectations, meet expectations. A pretty good formula.
Russ
The POINT Ardell is why would you as an agent refer your buyers to an inspector that would not point such things out. As I said, there are many fine inspectors in the area and it is your job as an agent to find them. And yes, if an agent who has knowledge that popcorn ceilings MAY contain asbestos, it would be great if they mentioned that to the buyer. It then becomes a buyer issue, not an agent issue, to determine how they want to proceed. Read my post again. Did I not say that pointing out red flags is desirable? Of course it is. The POINT Ardell is that many agents don’t stop there. They scrape some off themselves and taste it because they think they know what asbestos tastes like.
And the most important POINT of them all…is that many buyer agents don’t set clear enough expectations with their clients before showing them a single house as to what they will do for them and as importantly, what they won’t. As such, buyers think that the agents will do all and that is part of the “commission package.” The better approach is to actually sit down with the buyer before the engagement and discuss the scope of services that will be provided along with what will need to be provided by others. Set expectations, meet expectations. A pretty good formula.
Russ
The POINT Russ is that when I am the agent for the SELLER, there is a reasonable expectation that EVERY inspector should follow MINIMAL standards that include red flagging ASBESTOS. I am not always on the side of the fence that HIRES the inspector, and yet my seller client relies on the adeptness of the inspector with regard to after sale issues.
This article is about Home Inspection Standards that RELEASE the inspector from calling asbestos in our town. That is NOT reasonable by any stretch of the imagination.
Why you are turning this into some side issue about agents who EAT asbestos, I have yet to figure out.
But Tim seems to enjoy it 🙂
I need to take one more swing at inspectors, or more accurately a specific inspector.
I cannot believe that an inspection of one of my listings sold back in February is posted publicly on the internet, including the buyer’s name, phone number and email address.
I happened upon it by accident. He must have posted it “on the internet for her to access it” and left it there for the world to see! I did not recommend that inspector, by the way. Sometimes people happen upon one themselves because they don’t trust us to pick one. Well this one is posting her name phone number and email address all over the internet.
Does this look like mold or what we used in the home inspection response, “a mold-like substance”?
It seems that (mostly) everybody refuses not to take responsibility for their actions – neither buyer, seller, inspector, agent – and in many circumstances, the clients are harmed by not having the guidance they thought they were gaining when they hired X “professional.”
Some things are common sense, but expressing that common sense can more often than not lead to a blanket lawsuit. The litigious environment in which we live and exist may not actually lead to so many suits, but the fear of suits is so pervasive that everyone wants to pass the buck.
Certainly further testing may be warranted or recommended but where has common sense gone?
If it’s asbestos, it’s asbestos. If it’s mold, it’s mold.
Does this look like mold or what we used in the home inspection response, “a mold-like substance”?
It seems that (mostly) everybody refuses not to take responsibility for their actions – neither buyer, seller, inspector, agent – and in many circumstances, the clients are harmed by not having the guidance they thought they were gaining when they hired X “professional.”
Some things are common sense, but expressing that common sense can more often than not lead to a blanket lawsuit. The litigious environment in which we live and exist may not actually lead to so many suits, but the fear of suits is so pervasive that everyone wants to pass the buck.
Certainly further testing may be warranted or recommended but where has common sense gone?
If it’s asbestos, it’s asbestos. If it’s mold, it’s mold.
Hey Jim,
What does lead based paint look like?
If you have small children or are planning to have children (or you are RENTING a place to tenants with small children)…please pay attention to the lead based paint disclosure.
All too often, in fact almost aways, the agent slides it at the bottom of the stack saying check here (or checks it for them waiving the opportunity to test for lead based paint) and says, “Sign here, here and oh yeah,here…and here’s a little book…I’ll give you a call when the seller responds to your offer”.
And agents, please, please stop treating a 1996 built property the same as a 1917 built property, with regard to lead based paint, as if it’s just another paper for the file, and these properties are “equal”. This is sooooo very important. How is a consumer to know that the issues for a 1917 property are quite different than those of a 1996 built property, when it comes to lead based paint, if agents treat them all the same?
The lead based paint disclosure is not just paper number 13 and 14.
1, 2, 3, 4…13, 14 OK, all there! Please don’t be a “paper counter”…the real estate equivalent of a “bean counter”.
I assume (and tell my clients the same) that all houses built prior to 1978 (and maybe even 1980) probably have LBP. I give them the little blue book and tell them that they need to educate themselves.
Agents should never slide anything in at the last minute. 🙂
I have never had a client, either buyer or seller, choose to have either the test or remediation done, but I expect that one day I will. Virginia may be different than Washington with its Caveat Emptor status, though.
I assume (and tell my clients the same) that all houses built prior to 1978 (and maybe even 1980) probably have LBP. I give them the little blue book and tell them that they need to educate themselves.
Agents should never slide anything in at the last minute. 🙂
I have never had a client, either buyer or seller, choose to have either the test or remediation done, but I expect that one day I will. Virginia may be different than Washington with its Caveat Emptor status, though.
Jim,
We have a lot of homes built in the early 1900s with low windowsills. The whole lead based paint thing started when little children were biting on windowsills while looking out the window.
There are other issues, of course, but low windowsills in old houses are key…would think you would have them there. It’s more about “save the children” than “caveat emptor”…Caveat Emptor only exists when buyer’s refuse to be represented. There is NO caveat emptor anymore if the buyer has an agent…regardless of local laws.
I just bought a house with asbestos ceiling garbage… but agent was discouraging of asking the seller for aNYTHING – his whole deal was always treat seller like gold, buyer takes the crap.
Outrageous.
Ardell, you sound great – wish I’d read your stuff before buying. My agent was “speak/see/hear no evil” just sell it dammit! so he can get his commission asap…. made me never want to use an agent ever again.
He didn’t even deserve $500.
I just bought a house with asbestos ceiling garbage… but agent was discouraging of asking the seller for aNYTHING – his whole deal was always treat seller like gold, buyer takes the crap.
Outrageous.
Ardell, you sound great – wish I’d read your stuff before buying. My agent was “speak/see/hear no evil” just sell it dammit! so he can get his commission asap…. made me never want to use an agent ever again.
He didn’t even deserve $500.
Also, we got a survey bc that just makes sense with no previous one done… it disagreed with an un=neighborly fenceline and he says “Your survey could be wrong” How much worse could he have treated me???
Anon E Mouse,
First, love the name! Second, if every buyer in the country took a little chip of the “presumed to be asbestos material” and put it into a baggie and sent it to the lab, as part of the inspection process, then we would not be living with asbestos today.
Second, you can’t make the seller take it out, you can only say I don’t want the house with asbestos in it. Then if no one ever wants to buy a house with asbestos in it we will finally be rid of asbestos. But by sending it to the lab and giving the seller a report, the seller would be forced to disclose the asbestos to future buyers…which would be a step in the right direction.
Third, unfortunately same scenario with fence. You can say, then I don’t want the house, but you can’t make the neighbor, who is not a party to the contract, take his fence down. Fences are rarely spot on a property line.
You knew there was asbestos and you knew there was a fence issue, you had all of the info. In order to maybe get it all taken care of you have to say “I don’t want this house unless this is done, and MEAN it.” Then if someone else is willing to take it with these two issues, you don’t get the house. If no one else wants it, then the seller can choose not to sell it, or fix those things. But no one can make a seller anything.
In essence, your agent was correct. Your option was to buy it or not buy it. If you loved everything else about the house, then you likely made the correct choice.
How much of your property was “over the fence”?
Exception might be if a building was built over the property line, then a lot adjustment by an attorney would be in order for many reasons. A fence is not as permanent as a building.
I just had my ceiling in one of my rooms tested for asbestos. Because of a insurance claim i had for a leaking skylite. It came back positive. Even though i dont have to pay for it. i now have the concern of 3 other rooms that have it. my kids throw there rubber balls and the stuff falls down. i never knew it was asbestos and my agent nor inspector disclosed this to me also when i purchased the house. Now im afraid for me and my family. I cant afford 6.000 dollars to have it removed. so what do i do tell my kids to stop being kids. this really upsets me.
Dear Ardell,
When you pay for my liability insurance premiums (which is nearly 8% of the inspection fees), I may listen to you, instead of insurance agent and the attorney who insist that I must have a disclaimer for lead, asbestos etc. Why are you shooting the poor messenger, instead, why can not you hurl a word at the lawmakers and the insurance mafia who made that mess in the first place? And the person who suggested sending the sample to lab for positive testing, must understand that clients are balking to pay me $ 15.00 an hour, and you want the inspector to pay from his fees for $ 300.00 for asbestos test?? Why do not you write to the legislators and do some thing about? We too live like every one else in the same homes, just like every one else. Your comments against home inspectors are misdirected and totally misplaced without any sense of ground reality. You were too happy to be selling homes and taking your stash to the banks every day and look what greed did to all of us. Now we have to pay nearly a trillion dollars, perhaps much more, only because there were totally unrealistic expectations from the home purchases, be it how to fund it or how to maintain it. Of-course the grass is always green on the other side of the fence. You should ask the State that Asbestos inspection should be part of the standards, so the every home inspector and figure out the cost & quote according and every one would be on the same level playing field. Without either I price myself out of the business or I have no other recourse but to disclaim it. Sorry that is the capitalist’s way!!
Jay,
I relate such testing to the way I’ve seen it done on the East Coast as to Radon. Radon testing was separate from the home inspection and an additional cost. Often the home inspector would do both, as in placing the canisters and sending them to the lab, but the cost was not included in the inspection fee.
I’m not shooting anyone…I’m talking to homebuyers who often do not realize that the presence of asbestos is not something they can rely on a “home inspection” to determine. As long as home buyers fully understand that many, many homes in the Seattle area contain asbestos and that the presence of asbestos is not determined in the home inspection…that’s the word I went to get out. Blame is not my motive…making sure buyers are well informed in that regard it my motive.
I haven’t read all the comments here, but I wonder if what you’re seeing is just due to a different way of dealing with asbestos as time has gone on. Absent the stuff being damaged in some way, I think the current thinking is to leave the stuff alone, unless you need to remodel, etc. Thus, just assume you have asbestos in an older house, and find out if and when you need to.
Kary,
1) You have to know where it is to “leave the stuff alone”.
2) If it’s in a popcorn ceiling, a little boy could easily disperse it simply by bouncing a ball in his bedroom.
I don’t know anyone under 50 who would be OK with not knowing whether or not they have asbestos and where it is.
As a practical matter there are only a few places it could be. Popcorn ceilings, flooring and pipe insulation come to mind. Am I correct in assuming you have all your buyers do lead paint inspections? 😉
I love all the info I have read here. As a first time home buyer I was very lucky to have an awesome inspector that did inform me of asbestos in the tile flooring in the basement of a home I was interested in purchasing. The problem I now have is to decide if I want to just accept it and still buy the house. When I told my realtor I was having reservations about it I was made to feel like I was over analyzing it because basically it wasn’t a big deal and I wouldn’t be able to find a home in my price range that didn’t have asbestos in it somewhere(since most of the homes are older). I found this very discouraging…is this true??
Michelle, I had a client very sensitive to the issue who bought a house with asbestos floor tile a couple of years ago. He did buy the house and he had the tile removed. Most recommend you just cover it with carpet, but his preference was to remove it.
As to what your agent said…I am not allowed under our rules of cooperation to contradict your agent. I don’t run into asbestos tile very often but nor have I had any one cancel a sale when we found it either.