[photopress:man_in_the_bushes.jpg,thumb,alignright]This article is in response to a reader’s request yesterday, that I describe what a “man in the bushes” listing means.
Over the years, I have used the term “man in the bushes” most often in response to the question, “Can I sell my home myself as a For Sale by Owner”. If they are ready, willing and able to do that, I tell them to try it for up to 30 days, even two weeks, to see if they have a “man in the bushes”. I once sold a home with 23 men in the bushes.
A “Man in the Bushes” property is usually a unique home that has something that no other house has, and is also one people have suspected may at some time be sold. In this case a stand out corner property in Mount Baker built at or before the turn of the last century in the late 1800’s with some Lake view. It also has an owner who for some reason, actually many reasons, never got around to moving into it. So it has been vacant on and off for some forty years.
There’s usually someone, or several someones, who drive by it on a regular basis (in this case visiting his brother who lives nearby) who has said to himself a skazillion times, “If that house ever goes up for sale, I’d like to have it”. Of course they don’t know for sure until it does go on market and they go in it. But they are already 70% sure they want it. That’s a “man in the bushes”. Not just someone who is the first one to view it when it is listed, but someone who has been waiting for that opportunity to arise for a long time.
A seller can either try a FSBO on that, or get a deeply discounted rate if the “man in the bushes” comes forward very quickly. Another option is to list it in the mls and “exclude” the man in the bushes from the listing with a timeframe. “If Mr. X arrives and makes an offer on the property within 7 days, the listing is null and void”. To do it that way, you need to know who Mr. X is in advance and put him in the contract by name.
Sometimes the Man in the Bushes is a relative who has indicated an interest in buying it over the years, but may be “all talk” and “no ability to do so”. You give them 7 days to “put up or shut up”. This way the family doesn’t have to hear for the rest of their lives that this guy would have bought it, but no one gave him the opportunity to do so. There should never be a fee connected, other than maybe a handling fee, for people to sell their home to a relative. So if you think you have a “Man in the Bushes” in your family, give them 7 – 10 days to at least put that interest on paper, with no or little fee paid if a family member buys the property in the early part of the listing.
Very interesting… thank you so much. More terminology lessons! 🙂
Well, it’s more “ArdellSpeak” than “terminology”. I don’t mean to suggest that any and all agents would permit an exclusion in the manner that I do and will. Some offices do not permit their agents to have this type of flexibility to customize the paperwork to each client’s specific needs. Generally, if the family member does “appear” in short order, I would use a legal service like Craig’s to replace me in the picture, and then back out gracefully and be happy for them.
Ardell, I do allow these “man in the bush” listing exclusions. I call them “exempt parties”. Your terminology is more interesting than mine. I, like you, put a limited time period on the exempt party to put up or shut up, as you say. Once I get time and money invested into the marketing of the listing, I’m not going to give it back to the seller. The “exempt party” rarely acts, but it does happen. On the other side, I sold TO a man-in-the-bush once. No-one knew he was a man-in-the-bush, so he was not listed as exempt and I received my full selling side service fee.
Carol, If you are going to speak “ArdellSpeak”, we may need a class 🙂 It’s Man-in-the-Bushes…it takes more than one bush to hide the averaged sized man. P.S. My Man-in-the-Bushes of last weak flaked out just before the ink dried and the last intial got placed. Sometimes when you give a man exactly what he wants…he wants something else. Gives “How’s it feel to want” a whole new meaning when people prefer wanting to getting.
Ardell, Thank you for the clarification. It’s so difficult to learn a “new language”. 🙂
Carol,
I peeked in your blog again. Why are you spending so much time doing property searches? Doesn’t the mls system email you when a new listing comes on?
Ardell, We can review a 24-hour Hot Sheet at any given time, but I do full-fledged, customized, property searches for each inquiry. I have a search option and notification feature on my website, but it’s too generic. We need to work on improving that. Our market is so HOT it’s necessary to monitor the status of the inventory constantly. Did you read the “Money” magazine article, placing Wenatchee #2 in the nation for anticipated real estate appreciation over the next 12 months? Our market was already hot, but the insanity has now set in. I’m getting inundated with inquiries from California to Virginia and various points in between.
Ardell,
I once sold a property to a man in the bushes. I was anticipating the seller trying to perform some type of commissiondectomy so to head him off, I was going to use the infamous T.S. speech to let him know I would be quite the unwilling patient.
I only got as far as “I know you’re pretty dissapointed that after ALL THIS TIME and ALL THIS WORK that WE ended up selling the property to someone you already knew…” The seller interrupted that he “wasn’t disappointed at all. He had already offered to buy it from me before I listed it, at half the price.”
Had the seller mentioned the man in the bushes orginally, I probably would have excluded him for awhile. Had the seller thought the buyer was serious, he probably would have mentioned it. The competition with other buyers, caused by the agent’s advertising, can bring out an acceptable offer from the man in the bushes, in which case the agent deserves compensation.
There is also a different scenario, where the man in the bushes has a seceret option to buy and then the poor agent advertises and finds a buyer only to have the seller turn around and sell to the excluded party at that price. I have had people ask me to list with no time limit on the exclusion where I believe this was going on. I didn’t list the property and don’t feel bad, I smoked them out in the beginning.
You are correct in putting a time limit on there. I have done that in the past. Although now I just tell the person to give the so-called-buyer a week or two to decide and then come back to me and we list then with no exclusion. Keeps everything cleaner that way.
Usually the seller doesn’t think the man in the bushes is serious, or they wouldn’t be trying to list it anyway. Think about it, if you had a serious buyer already lined why would you go to an agent, somebody whose job it is to find a buyer?
Ardell,
I once sold a property to a man in the bushes. I was anticipating the seller trying to perform some type of commissiondectomy so to head him off, I was going to use the infamous T.S. speech to let him know I would be quite the unwilling patient.
I only got as far as “I know you’re pretty dissapointed that after ALL THIS TIME and ALL THIS WORK that WE ended up selling the property to someone you already knew…” The seller interrupted that he “wasn’t disappointed at all. He had already offered to buy it from me before I listed it, at half the price.”
Had the seller mentioned the man in the bushes orginally, I probably would have excluded him for awhile. Had the seller thought the buyer was serious, he probably would have mentioned it. The competition with other buyers, caused by the agent’s advertising, can bring out an acceptable offer from the man in the bushes, in which case the agent deserves compensation.
There is also a different scenario, where the man in the bushes has a seceret option to buy and then the poor agent advertises and finds a buyer only to have the seller turn around and sell to the excluded party at that price. I have had people ask me to list with no time limit on the exclusion where I believe this was going on. I didn’t list the property and don’t feel bad, I smoked them out in the beginning.
You are correct in putting a time limit on there. I have done that in the past. Although now I just tell the person to give the so-called-buyer a week or two to decide and then come back to me and we list then with no exclusion. Keeps everything cleaner that way.
Usually the seller doesn’t think the man in the bushes is serious, or they wouldn’t be trying to list it anyway. Think about it, if you had a serious buyer already lined why would you go to an agent, somebody whose job it is to find a buyer?
It is hard to respond, Zachary, because you don’t seem to view yourself as someone who represents people and their best case scenarios. “having a buyer already lined up” sounds like you are leading cattle to a slaughter.
In any event, I recently submitted an offer which felt a lot like the seller was using our offer to get the best price from his “man in the bushes”. I am the Buyer’s Agent and represent the Buyer’s Best Interest (and not my own) and I feel badly for the buyer who may have been “used” in that manner. We will together, find another house, though we haven’t totally given up on this one yet. Waiting for it to get out of STI and go to pending. Maybe the Man in the Bushes will get buyer’s remorse and my client can still get the house. I’m hoping.
The whole tone of your comment makes me feel like you think it is all about you. Maybe I’m wrong. I hope so. If the best thing for me to do for the seller, is flush out other potential buyers quickly to evaluate the price for the “man in the bushes”, then maybe I agree to do that for a flat fee. Whatever is best for my client, that is what I do. If I don’t want to do what he needs done in his best interest, then I decline the job at any price.
But your comment that you “smoked them out at the beginning” doesn’t give me a lot of confidence in your ability to represent people, treating them with the dignity and respect they deserve. You sound more like a salesman than someone who represents people for a living. That’s OK. You are clearly not alone. But it is hard for me to relate.
It is hard to respond, Zachary, because you don’t seem to view yourself as someone who represents people and their best case scenarios. “having a buyer already lined up” sounds like you are leading cattle to a slaughter.
In any event, I recently submitted an offer which felt a lot like the seller was using our offer to get the best price from his “man in the bushes”. I am the Buyer’s Agent and represent the Buyer’s Best Interest (and not my own) and I feel badly for the buyer who may have been “used” in that manner. We will together, find another house, though we haven’t totally given up on this one yet. Waiting for it to get out of STI and go to pending. Maybe the Man in the Bushes will get buyer’s remorse and my client can still get the house. I’m hoping.
The whole tone of your comment makes me feel like you think it is all about you. Maybe I’m wrong. I hope so. If the best thing for me to do for the seller, is flush out other potential buyers quickly to evaluate the price for the “man in the bushes”, then maybe I agree to do that for a flat fee. Whatever is best for my client, that is what I do. If I don’t want to do what he needs done in his best interest, then I decline the job at any price.
But your comment that you “smoked them out at the beginning” doesn’t give me a lot of confidence in your ability to represent people, treating them with the dignity and respect they deserve. You sound more like a salesman than someone who represents people for a living. That’s OK. You are clearly not alone. But it is hard for me to relate.
If the seller already has the property tied up, as happens many of times in the excluded prospect listings (and even you suspect it in the story you describe), then I don’t see how listing the property and advertising it for sale when it is in fact not for sale is ethical. Unless you disclosed in all advertising that: this is already written up and any bids will be just to increase the price on the contract they have already written up. I doubt any agents efforts would generate buyers, if this was disclosed.
I have seen this happen with offers from large institutional buyers who use very long periods with an esclation clause (I personally would never touch offers like these with a 10 foot pole but I have heard of many and actually seen one).
The people I smoked out where people who were: dishonest with me. Now I don’t want to work for a dishonest seller who lies to me, because they would probably want me to lie to others for them. Which was exactly the case when I “smoked them out,” in that they still wanted me to list the property and tell others that the property was available when it was in fact not available. I passed up the listing. Someone else took it.
If they already have it under contract there really is no valuable service I can perform for them, so I take their best interests at heart and tell them they don’t need me and they can save the money.
But like I said, putting a short time limit on it like you reccomend is smart. Smarter than 98% of agents out there. I would take the additional step of not listing it at all until it was sorted out, but depending on the seller’s needs (can he wait a week or two?) this might be on a case by case basis.
If the seller already has the property tied up, as happens many of times in the excluded prospect listings (and even you suspect it in the story you describe), then I don’t see how listing the property and advertising it for sale when it is in fact not for sale is ethical. Unless you disclosed in all advertising that: this is already written up and any bids will be just to increase the price on the contract they have already written up. I doubt any agents efforts would generate buyers, if this was disclosed.
I have seen this happen with offers from large institutional buyers who use very long periods with an esclation clause (I personally would never touch offers like these with a 10 foot pole but I have heard of many and actually seen one).
The people I smoked out where people who were: dishonest with me. Now I don’t want to work for a dishonest seller who lies to me, because they would probably want me to lie to others for them. Which was exactly the case when I “smoked them out,” in that they still wanted me to list the property and tell others that the property was available when it was in fact not available. I passed up the listing. Someone else took it.
If they already have it under contract there really is no valuable service I can perform for them, so I take their best interests at heart and tell them they don’t need me and they can save the money.
But like I said, putting a short time limit on it like you reccomend is smart. Smarter than 98% of agents out there. I would take the additional step of not listing it at all until it was sorted out, but depending on the seller’s needs (can he wait a week or two?) this might be on a case by case basis.
The “man in the bushes” usually doesn’t have a price, or a means to ascertain a fair market value, so the property isn’t “tied up” as in “in contract”. There may be an offer “in play”, but not finalized.
One example I remember down in L.A. was a property being sold as a result of a divorce. It appraised for and the agent’s best guesstimate was $1.3 Million. The man wanted to buy out the woman. The divorce decree, or court temp ruling pending final divorce, ordered that the property be listed for sale and the the man have the right to buy out the woman at the highest offer price. He had the right to match it without having to beat it.
The property had six offers within one to two hours of being listed. The market was popping higher and faster than we could imagine or guess at. The property sold for $400,000 over asking price, and the man couldn’t afford to buy it out at that price of $1.7 million. So the highest bidder, not the ex, got the property. It could have gone the other way…but still ethical and fair, I’d say.
I agree that anyone who is choosing to lie to me, is not worthy of me :-), or you. But if the seller still had the option to change the price, based on your marketing, with “the man in the bushes”, then it couldn’t have been “in contract and not available”. If the seller had a fully executed contract, there would be no reason to test the price, if it could not be changed. If it could be changed, then someone else still had the long shot at getting it, if the price was higher than the “man in the bushes” would pay.
Sometimes it is a family member who makes an offer much lower than fair market value, and there is no way to play it through except to list it. No reason the man in the bushes can’t be one of the bidders, and excluded or at a different rate.
The “man in the bushes” usually doesn’t have a price, or a means to ascertain a fair market value, so the property isn’t “tied up” as in “in contract”. There may be an offer “in play”, but not finalized.
One example I remember down in L.A. was a property being sold as a result of a divorce. It appraised for and the agent’s best guesstimate was $1.3 Million. The man wanted to buy out the woman. The divorce decree, or court temp ruling pending final divorce, ordered that the property be listed for sale and the the man have the right to buy out the woman at the highest offer price. He had the right to match it without having to beat it.
The property had six offers within one to two hours of being listed. The market was popping higher and faster than we could imagine or guess at. The property sold for $400,000 over asking price, and the man couldn’t afford to buy it out at that price of $1.7 million. So the highest bidder, not the ex, got the property. It could have gone the other way…but still ethical and fair, I’d say.
I agree that anyone who is choosing to lie to me, is not worthy of me :-), or you. But if the seller still had the option to change the price, based on your marketing, with “the man in the bushes”, then it couldn’t have been “in contract and not available”. If the seller had a fully executed contract, there would be no reason to test the price, if it could not be changed. If it could be changed, then someone else still had the long shot at getting it, if the price was higher than the “man in the bushes” would pay.
Sometimes it is a family member who makes an offer much lower than fair market value, and there is no way to play it through except to list it. No reason the man in the bushes can’t be one of the bidders, and excluded or at a different rate.